Spell Creation is an integral part of TES magic! : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:47 am

I'm glad that Spell Creation is gone, magic is now unique and more important. Nobody cares about Healing once they have their custom heal spell but since Spell Creation is gone, Healing is now more important like it should be. Same goes for all the other spell effects too.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:03 am

The "logical" reason is that I don't believe it would be very compatible with the dual casting system. I believe by creating customized spells, it would cause technical issues with the gameplay mechanics.

For instance, one exploit of the Spellmaking system that I despised, was the ability to fully level up one skill (let's say, Illusion), and mix your Master spell effects with the spell effects of another, untrained school, and be able to use high end spells of your untrained school.

Example:

If I am level 100 Illusion, I can cast a Master level On Target Frenzy spell. This means that the spell is now considered an Illusion spell, thus casting off of my Illusion skill.

Great, right?

But what it also means is that I can combine it with an Expert level Destruction spell. I am a Novice in Destruction.

But because the Illusion effect is greater, the spell works off of my Illusion skill, allowing me to cast powerful Destruction spells well above my level.

Now combine that with the current casting system, and dual casting perks, etc... and you have a mess on your hands.

There's also the fact that, specific spell effects have specific casting types. I.E.: Wards are a specialized, constant casting type. There are constant cast damage streams. Runes. "Hold to cast" spells like Detect Life. Instant casts like summons. Reanimations.

The Spellmaking would get all wonky, as certain spell types would be more customizable than others, leaving certain mages unable to access Spellmaking. For example, what would a Necromancer benefit from Spellmaking, when the reanimate spells are pretty specific in what they do?

You wouldn't be able to customize a bunch of different spells. How could you customize a Ward spell with a Rune cast? How could you combine a reanimate with Detect Life?

The previous system, because it was incredibly simple, made itself much more compatible to Spellmaking. This newer system is much more complex, so Spellmaking would have to walk a delicate tight rope to work properly. It wouldn't be fully customizable like versions past.

And if it's between evolved gameplay mechanics, or Spellmaking, well, I'll take the newer mechanics everytime out.

That's not to say Bethesda implemented the newer mechanics as well as they could. They left out tons of spell effects that should have been in. But out of the 2 choices, they made the right one.

I just don't see how Spellmaking would work with the current mechanics, without being incredibly toned down. Which people would be [censored]ing about that anyways.

Yes, there could be some cool things that could be done with Spellmaking, even with the current mechanics, and I am not against a Spellmaking feature in future DLC. But Spellmaking as we've known it would not work in Skyrim.

This is all your opinion. It still doesn't negate the fact that spellmaking should be an OPTION for those who wish to use it. As you would have the option not to or not to "abuse" certain mechanics.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:38 pm

I'll never get my head around those who think less choice/less player driven content is better in a sanbox, open world game

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:30 am

I have to agree, spell creation should be in there to mix things up a bit, playing a mage is boring IMO, not enough variety, again the warrior gets smithing, why no spell creation.
and lastly i believe if Oblivion or Skyrim was your first TES game, then you proably don't know what your on about.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:15 am

I agree wholeheartedly, OP. But apparently the developers of the series do not believe spellmaking is an integral part of the series. And I don't believe we'll ever see it again, regardless of how much any of us express our desire to see it in a TES game again...

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:09 pm

I'm glad that Spell Creation is gone, magic is now unique and more important. Nobody cares about Healing once they have their custom heal spell but since Spell Creation is gone, Healing is now more important like it should be. Same goes for all the other spell effects too.

Did someone put a gun to your head and force you to use spell creation? Because last time I checked it was an optional feature.

Being happy that a completely optional feature is gone makes no sense whatsoever. It's like saying "Hooray! Strawberry is no longer a flavor of Ben and Jerry's ice cream! I prefer vanilla, so not having strawberry as an option makes my experience more enjoyable!"

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:03 am

Personally I have been for bringing back Spell Creation this whole time...But, this is the first time I have read someonelay out a well thought out counter, and that should be recognized. Cheers.

That said I can see what your saying, and it makes a lot of sense. Yet, there is a lot of stuff missing that could have made UP for the magic system that was left out.

New casting options were added, there is a better focus on strategy for mages... it's an interesting deviation from the norm.

That said, we have still lost a LOT... that could have been made up for the loss of spell creation, yet wasn't included.

I really think that Magic mods will quickly overpopulate modding sites, because there is so many directions we could have been provided yet weren't. Before I continue on that though, I don't think Bethesda put anything to gather poorly. Everything they put into Skyrim was thought out and for the most part appreciated. And, often, the more is better (Which is integral to the arguement for Magic creation) isn't always true.

The issue here is that for a game that is so devoted to making an immersive working world... the removal of something like this, seems counter to their goals. It's not like, no one makes spells, you get spells from that Cat in the College of Winterhold, and he says: "Oh try out these spells I have made." Why can't he do it, but we can't?

Also, going back to the: Well there are new types of spells you can cast, liek Runes and whatnot... yes, that is true, but 64 is a pathetic number of spells, when spaced out over as many schools of magic as it is, and your only left with a couple of chocies at level of how you can do something. Destruction levels as follows: Flame-thrower, projectile flame ball, projectile explosive flame ball, flame cloak. Then there are alternatives for Frost and Lightning. This is rather standard, but thats it. For a SCHOOL OF MAGIC, that seems rather... limited. What about some sort of destruction magic that uses streams of air to slice stuff up? What about pure energy of some flavor that disintegrates? What about elemental combinations like a wall of air that shoves you back, intensifying inner heat to make you combust, draw out all the water from your body to dessicate you? All of these things could have varying strengths from: A mild annoyance, to life threatening. What about pure magical energy instead of just elemental?

There is variety, but there isn't choice. if there were many more options for spells or effects of spells, I for one would forget about Spell making, like I did Attribute points.

Here is something else, even if you didn't have mad variety: Why not have more combinations of magic? If I cast a flamethrower and palpatine fingers at the same time... Well then people are effected by ligthning and fire. Thats boring. What about if I cast a summoned boulder at someone, and use a fireball at the same time? Two seperate spells again, wow again boring.

now, what if I were to combine fire with boulder and throw a fireball weight of 75lbs at someone's chest? That is awesome.

yes, I know I am saying: "What if we added stuff from the game Magicka into Skyrim" but why the hell not? Why the heck didn't we at least take SOME directions from that game's system? if we're going to loose spell making and variety of effects, why can't we have combination effects or counters... or SOMETHING like that?

The point I'm trying to get to here, is that even with the new system... there is SO MUCH MORE they could have made out of it, but didn't. They could have made it freaking amazing, but instead it is... Good, but still a shadow of what it could be. I would rather magic creation copy and pasted with no alteration out of Oblivion (Which was inferior to most other systems IMO) than what they have now!

I won't go into all your specifics and stuff, since you're asking for a lot of stuff that's never even been hinted at in an Elder Scrolls game (not that it's a bad thing, by the way!), so how realistic it'd be to get it is up in the air...

But I will say that I agree with you that the current system has loads of untapped potential.

I am not against Spellmaking DLC, and magic expansion DLC, as long as that's a -feature- of the DLC, and not the basis of the DLC (I.E.: they have stated they are going more Fallout 3 style with the DLC, which is essentially full expansions. If we get full expansions, with expanded magic and Spellmaking as part of that, I think it's fine), but again, I don't think we'll ever get Spellmaking as we've known it in the past.

I'll be curious to see what these modders do with Spellmaking. My opinion on mods is that I typically don't use them, even when I do have the game on PC (I originally bought Morrowind and Oblivion on PC, before it blew up and I replaced my computer with an X-Box 360), because my view is just because a modder makes it doesn't mean it's going to be good. And they often times create way more compatibility issues than they are worth.

I think they took magic in a good direction in Skyrim... they just didn't go the full way with it. They didn't maximize the mechanics they have in place.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:58 am

Yes, but no spellmaking altars. Perhaps a Morrowind-style service system. Then again, learning to do it yourself instead of paying for it....

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:15 am

This is all your opinion. It still doesn't negate the fact that spellmaking should be an OPTION for those who wish to use it. As you would have the option not to or not to "abuse" certain mechanics.

You shouldn't have the option if it simply doesn't -work-. And that's the point that I'm trying to make, that technically, Spellmaking (as we know it, and as it's being asked for) would not -technically- work with the current game mechanics. It would -physically- break the game (not "break" it by being overpowered, but "break it" by not working properly. People are [censored]ing about bugs enough as it is, and you're asking to introduce more).

That is why I believe Spellmaking was left out. And if that's the case, then it's best they did. Wait to release it in a DLC when they have some time to work it out properly.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:04 pm

Anyone who says Skyrim's magical "variety" is good enough to justify axing spellmaking...well, they're wrong.

VISUALLY, yes, there is a greater variety. But the only things that have actually been added that weren't in previous games are raising the dead, and sustained spells (wards, flamethrowers), the *effects* of which have always been part of the game.

In previous games, I could craft a spell that covered me in a ward that reflected magicka back at the caster, while simultaneously making me levitate, heal health and fatigue/stamina, and summoning a critter. All in one spell. Or, I could make a spell that created an area of effect where any enemy caught inside had their health and magicka drained and absorbed into me. Or I could make a spell that calmed everyone in the area while also burning them to death.

HOWEVER, the balance of power worked out fine, since I couldn't have been able to do those things until I was high level with extremely high magic skills, anyway.

In Skyrim? Well, at best I could do 2 single effects at the same time, in 2 different spells. Whoop-dee-freaking-doo. Yeah, the spells are pretty, but that's about all the magic system has going for it.

I love Skyrim. I'm not trying to bash it or say it "svcks." So, Skyrim lovers don't have any reason to try and defend the game because of this post. I love the game too. But by axing spellmaking, the devs have shafted mage players. Period.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:43 am

I'm glad that Spell Creation is gone, magic is now unique and more important. Nobody cares about Healing once they have their custom heal spell but since Spell Creation is gone, Healing is now more important like it should be. Same goes for all the other spell effects too.

Umm what? Spell creation was a unique magic system. The one they have now is a generic system that is done my many, many other games and outdone by some as well.

You shouldn't have the option if it simply doesn't -work-. And that's the point that I'm trying to make, that technically, Spellmaking (as we know it, and as it's being asked for) would not -technically- work with the current game mechanics. It would -physically- break the game (not "break" it by being overpowered, but "break it" by not working properly. People are [censored]ing about bugs enough as it is, and you're asking to introduce more).

That is why I believe Spellmaking was left out. And if that's the case, then it's best they did. Wait to release it in a DLC when they have some time to work it out properly.

I don't see how it wouldn't work. Pick cone, pick ice, set damage/mana usage, and then you have a blue flamethrower that does ice damage. Dual casting already only works with the same spell in each hand so no difference there. Dual cast the icethrower and it ups the damage.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:46 pm

You shouldn't have the option if it simply doesn't -work-. And that's the point that I'm trying to make, that technically, Spellmaking (as we know it, and as it's being asked for) would not -technically- work with the current game mechanics. It would -physically- break the game (not "break" it by being overpowered, but "break it" by not working properly. People are [censored]ing about bugs enough as it is, and you're asking to introduce more).

That is why I believe Spellmaking was left out. And if that's the case, then it's best they did. Wait to release it in a DLC when they have some time to work it out properly.

Right, you BELIEVE that this is the reason it was left out but how do you know if that is the reason since they don't communicate such things to the playerbase? There could be any number of reasons, including yours. Besides, my main response to you was because you implied that spellmaking could be abused by combining effects that will go off of the strength of the stronger effect even if the other effect is weaker, to which my reply was - DON'T USE IT that way if it bothers you (or) don't use it at all.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:59 am

I don't see how it wouldn't work. Pick cone, pick ice, set damage/mana usage, and then you have a blue flamethrower that does ice damage. Dual casting already only works with the same spell in each hand so no difference there. Dual cast the icethrower and it ups the damage.

Spellmaking is deeper than just tweaking the effects of one spell, it's also about combining spells.

How do you take that same blue flamethrower with ice damage that you mentioned, and combine it with a Shield spell? Both spells cast completely differently.

How do you take a Shield spell and cast it with a Reanimate spell? Or a Ward spell with a Summon spell? Or a Rune spell with Detect Life?

Spellmaking would be severely limited in what it'd be capable of.

» Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:12 pm

Some options that seem like they would fit well:

1. Let me level up my spells via a spellmaking alter in a manner similar to smithing so that I actually have useful access to all my spells instead of just forcing me to drop and replace my spells as I level with whatever scales to my current level. If I like the flamethrower effect, let me level up flame instead of switching to the flamebolt, etc. Projectile at range, projectile at range with AOE, these are useful effects that can be accessed at higher levels - great. Just don't make every prior spell useless as I level up.

2. Let me combine effects with dual casting. A 'frostfire' that does less damage on impact but a sustained damage/stamina drain like burning but with frost effect. Things along those lines.

3. Let me make runes of any effect I want. Paralysis, frenzy, how about magelight. Let me drop one rune per school, not total.

4. Any sort of spellmaking concept would figure mana cost as cumulative, not an average. Spellmaking has always been balanced by mana cost. You get perks that lower the cost of spells up to a certain effect level, it makes the spells cheaper to make and less mana-intensive to cast. I see no viable reason why spellmaking won't work with the Skyrim mechanics other than it having required more time and effort than was available to get it out on production time.

A business wanting to be profitable is not unreasonable. Demanding that someone give you $300 worth of product for $50 is not reasonable. Skyrim has a lot of improvements over Oblivion in a lot of ways but clearly some sacrifices had to be made to get it out the door at the same production cost. That's fair. The people at Bethesda want to feed their kids and pay their mortgages as well. Demanding someone give you something for free or have added something extra in at no cost is literally just as logical as them saying you should pay 3x as much because they want to buy a boat for New Years.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:03 am

No it didn't. You continue to throw this claim around, but it is 100% false. Spellmaking did not allow you to do things that were not already possible without it. All it allowed you to do was combine and tweak those things. You can play the same exact builds without Spellmaking than you can with it. Spellmaking doesn't add new and unique builds. You are still using the same limits of spell effects from the same handfuls of schools. Nothing changes with Spellmaking.

Yes, it did. Its been proven over and over again. Know more about ES. As is, magic gets old after 2-3 builds. SC allowed almost limitless customization and RP potential.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:19 am

No it didn't.

Learn how to be more creative with the current magic system if all you can get out of it is 2 or 3 builds.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:55 am

No it didn't.

Learn how to be more creative with the current magic system if all you can get out of it is 2 or 3 builds.

There isn't any creativity to be had, because magic in Skyrim is way too limited to allow significant variation. Spell making is the greatest tool for allowing players to be creative, because we can tailor make spells to our specifications.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:59 am

Spellmaking is deeper than just tweaking the effects of one spell, it's also about combining spells.

If you want it to. I mostly used spellmaking in the previous TES games to level my own spells. Combining effects always seemed to cost too much mana to me.

How do you take that same blue flamethrower with ice damage that you mentioned, and combine it with a Shield spell? Both spells cast completely differently.

Cone->ice->x damage
On self->Shield->x magnitude->1 sec duration

How do you take a Shield spell and cast it with a Reanimate spell? Or a Ward spell with a Summon spell? Or a Rune spell with Detect Life?

The same as above. It's been awhile since I've played Oblivion or Morrowind, but couldn't you easily make "On target->fire->x damage and On self->detect life->x duration" spells?

Edit:

No it didn't.

Learn how to be more creative with the current magic system if all you can get out of it is 2 or 3 builds.

So how many different Destruction centered builds can you make in Skyrim? In Oblivion and Morrowind you could have a mage that focused solely on one element (fire, frost, shock, poison, generic magic damage, or even draining). You could also modify that to make either a nuker or a DoT centered mage. That's 14 destruction builds right there. How many can you get in Skyrim again?

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:50 am

I miss having access to magic effects that could do stuff like poison people or otherwise weaken them, or all the cool effects that keep being cut. If it's unbalancing as the people described in my sig by chunkyman would complain, who cares? it's a 1-player game. If I want to poison people with magic or have elemental effects on my sword or turn invisible using a sneak perk then sure, why not? I guess it's ok with beth as long as you're not doing it by magic, right?

A lot of possible options for really cool spells have been offered up as a sacrifice to the glorious gimmick god called 'shouting' instead. and then they'll just forget to make them into spell effects in the next game. My spells can stagger people, but they can't send them flying across the room with a burst of telekinetic energy. Why not?

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:37 am

I can feel that "magic" part of magic kinda fading away after some time playing Skyrim. I never had that issue with the previous two games I've played. I believe adding spell creation back would be wonderful, if done well.

I believe they dropped it because there was always an optimal way to create what you wanted. If all you wanted was to deal the most damage possible, if at your level the max damage you can give a Fire effect for a spell was 50 pts, then why have magnitude if your going to be at the end of the meter anyways? You had limits that rendered customization pointless throughout that system -- spells so powerful you'd never hope to cast them, beyond your ability to cast them without cheats.

Bethesda possibly figured that instead of the player constantly having to figure out what the optimal spell to create would have to be each time, they would give players new spells that would try to render that number crunching useless by offering spells that covered anything they would want to cast, and give you two hands to offer a feeling of tactical thinking with what two spells you would use, and the favorites menu to help with speedy decisions. Great idea, in all honesty good job right there.

But, spell creation offered something that I love dearly, and that is customization. Fear Flamethrowers? Calm Runes? Bound Paralyzing Sword? So much could have been done with spell creation to make it work. Why did a system like that have to be dropped? That wasn't needed. It wasn't broken, why toss it out? I believe Skyrim could have had a system where you would combine multiple effects to make new spells, while having balancing factors to offer some kind of balance. Perhaps the original magnitude, area of effect, and duration lengths of the spells involved could be cut in half. Sounds good for, say, a Paralyzing Flamethrower/Blizzard/Lightning Storm.

TL;DR, Spell creation had it's flaws, but it should have been refined and found a spot in the game. Tirade over.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:17 am

It isn't so much the lack of spellmaking that leaves me dumbfounded, it's the lack of spell effects available. Absorb/Drain spells, Burden/Feather spells, Night Eye, Water Walking, Unlocking spells, Dispel, Summon spells were gutted, Bound spells also gutted.

A vampire can cast Absorb Health on me, but I can't cast it back. All Khajiit have Night Eye, but there's no equivalent spell. The effects are in the game, but not for a mage.

I've played two mages now in Skyrim, and a dozen or more in the previous games. Skyrim's magic is fun, and I still like playing a mage, but I can't help but feel the lack. Something is missing, and if you can't see it, I don't know what to say.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:25 am

I don't think there was anything sinister on Beth's part. I think they felt that the perk trees provided a more "contemporary" format for customization, and coupled with the shout mechanic, provided enough variety. The new mechanics, (flame throwing, runes, wards) are great. I understand that spell making would require adjustments to work within the new.. and improved paradigm. But, from a role playing perspective, I really miss it. Some of my most enjoyable moments in Oblivion were during down time on weekends spent in my wizards tower just experimenting with the spell making altar. Trying unique combinations, then experimenting with the imps downstairs in my gymnasium. I don't like going into battle and trying to out-incenerate the opposing mage. I loved the creativity of building my own twist on the spell, and creating unique mages as defined by their own custom spells.

I am hoping that Beth would consider introducing an updated spell maker for Skyrim... perhaps in another wizards tower dlc. I think it should be an "ultimate" perk. Perhaps, only obtainable by mastering the appropriate spell making branch of a skill tree; or purchasing a wizards tower dlc; or as a reward for earning the arch-mages quarters.... if that quest had been all that it should have been. But, I would not want to see altars scattered throughout dungeons for anyones use. It could be reserved as a perk that you gain access to by mastery of one of the branches of a skill tree.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:46 am

I don't think there was anything sinister on Beth's part.

Me neither. I just believe it was a horrible design choice.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:02 am

No it didn't. Learn how to be more creative with the current magic system if all you can get out of it is 2 or 3 builds.

Nope, its gone. Which has been stated ad nauseum with examples and proof to back it up.

» Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:55 am

There was no such thing as "Variety" of magic in Oblivion. You basicly had 100 spells all with the same animation that did either x amount of damage at range/self/touch/aoe. The only difference between a level 1 and level 20 spell was how much damage it did. It still looked the same did the same thing just costed a bit more mana.

When I use smithing to upgrade my sword, it still looks and swings the same way, but that doesn't bother me, cause now I know everytime I swing it, it does more damage, and I feel better for it.. I'll be damned if they removed that feature, just to "streamline" it for the next game.

I'm not a magic user, but after reading this thread, I scratch my head at people who are defending the removal of something that could have resulted in DEEP customization for magic users.

Don't worry about how it worked in the last game, just imagine how it would have worked in this game.

for example: A rune spell that poisons, followed by a rune spell in the other hand that makes the target weaker to poisons, cast in a tiny little corridor... (unless those rune spells are already in the game, then disregard my example and think up your own.)