He's not clearly in bed. The Voice Actor for Baalgruff must've reached an extra few decibels when he expressed how pissed he was to do this. If you side with the Imperials, his tone with you is not the same as it was when he said to meet the Greybeards. You come there at Tullius' behest, much the same as you would on the Stormcloak side, and he's annoyed as well. He basically wants you to [censored] off.. I don't think it's personal, but he knows it's high time that can't get what he wants.. to stay out of it.

There's too many flaws to point out in this post, so I'm just going to leave it at "you have no idea what you're talking about".

Let me be more specific ... The Thalmor are targeting anyone who openly worships Talos. Ever encountered a group of http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor#Thalmor_Justiciars that turns hostile on you after you tell them that you worship talos? I have quite a few times. IMO it's like telling someone that you don't have the right to practice Christianity.. other wise you will be killed for it.

The fact to the matter is the Imperial legion are pro Thalmor and anti freedom.. Why else did General Tellis brought Elenwen to the greybeards meeting? She wasn't even on the invitation list.

The Empire lost the war. Nothing that can be done about it. The Empire needs to rebuild itself and try again some day. The WGC was a good treaty because the Empire preserved its independence even if it cost them having Thalmor patrol their streets. The Empire still has its own army, can conduct diplomacy on its own, and pretty much makes it clear that they are going to take revenge once things calm down in Skyrim.

The last thing that will contribute to anti-Thalmor struggle is a pack of hillbillies taking up arms against their compatriots because they can't openly worship one of the nine divines. The Empire is in a situation very similar to Germany after the First World War complete with a "backstab" conspiracy theory that tore the nation apart, drove it to a brief civil war and paved way for those psychopaths who wrecked the country even worse.

Since you're unable to point out the facts regarding to my flaws it appears to me that you don't know what you're talking about either. How amazing is that? Your post back fired you.

Because he just likes to troll Ulfric. He could take it or leave it, I think. He's an impersonal robot, who thinks merely on a strategic level.

At least, that's how he seems to me. I don't think it's a good thing (let me repeat that: He's not cool for that), but he's hardly on the Thalmor side either.

Speaking of which, despite all of the Justiciars you can kill, this is your first and only true chance to fight the Dominion in this game. To kick Elenwen out. Everything else is an empty action - or a deluded one (like fighting the war). You want to fight the Dominion? Kick her out and get these other people to finally talk to each other alone.

Jarl Balgruuf is a Talos worshipper, according to his one of his heirs.

He isn't clearly in bed with the Imperials. If you talk to him, he speaks of how Whiterun depends on trade, and trade comes from the Empire. Tthat is the maximum extent of his loyalty to the Empire; they're good for business. When you ask him about which side he supports, he will explain that he is on the side of the people of Whiterun, meaning he pus the people of his Hold first (this is also backed up by his actions and the things he says. He immediately sends additional soldiers to Riverwood to protect the village in case of a dragon attack, and speaks of having to be prepared by training the guards, having water ready for inevitable fires, etc.)

The fact that he allows an open-air Talos Shrine demonstrates two things; his sense of neutrality and compromise, and his understanding of the situation in Skyrim. Heimskr is pretty insane and most people pay him no attention, so that helps as well. Balgruuf is annoyed at the Imperials and Stormcloaks and no matter what side you choose in the war, he is reluctant either way. I think he genuinely wants what's best for his people and operates from that mindset. As others have said though, he's far from perfect. Even Gandhi had his flaws.

If you don't like Mede, you can just
As for the bribery accusations, people are basing it off his steward saying "Those chests of gold didn't hurt."

Most people leave it at that and try to make him look like a bad man, but then he yells at Avenicci and says "This isn't about gold, dammit!"

Overall, the only people who think he's a bribed corrupt king are the Stormcloak fans, trying to make themselves feel better after casting him out of the city he loved.

He brought Elenwen to the meeting because he was required to.

If people were actually open-minded enough and tried to play through both civil war sides you would find out that Tullius also dislikes the Thalmor.

This sub-forum is called 'Skyrim Cheats, Hints, and Spoilers'.
Complaining about finding spoilers in this sub-forum is like complaining about finding a woman in the kitchen.

I did Stormcloaks on my first character and felt the same way as the OP. It's funny - there are pros and cons to both Empire and 'Cloaks - both have good arguments and both have flaws. Yet for some reason, I felt guilty about killing the Imperial troops, guilty about Whiterun and I really disliked Galmor Stone-Fist. I've sided with the Empire on my two subsequent characters and feel happier with it, even though it means Maven Black-Briar becomes thane of Riften and that lazy goodfornothing remains thane of Falkreath. It's just a gut thing.

You really want to play this game, little boy? Alright, I do indulge in responding to trolls every so often.


1. Balgruuf is not really making a mistake by siding with the Empire. They've left his city alone and he gets annoyed when they pester him. He says several times that his priorities and allegiance lies with the people of his Hold. If you speak to him about his motivations, he reveals that the extent of his loyalty to the Empire is simply because they're good for business. Whiterun is the central hub of Skyrim, and depends on trade. The Empire has fostered trade, allowing Whiterun to grow.

2. How is Balgruuf not protecting people's ability to worship? The most glaring example of why you're completely wrong is the fact that there is Heimskr, a Priest of Talos, preaching at a public and open-air Shrine to Talos. The Empire doesn't even enforce the White-Gold Concordat; it leaves that the Thalmor who are stupid in doing so since it really only forces the worship underground (just like early Roman attempts to wipe out Christianity were met with abject failure since it just forced worship underground, where it continued to grow). Also, do you see any Thalmor near or in Whiterun? Of course not.

3. How is Balgruuf not protecting his people? The second example of how wrong you are is that Balgruuf IMMEDIATELY helps his people. When you tell him that a dragon destroyed Helgen, he orders his housecarl to send some men to Riverwood to bolster defences in case a dragon attacks the village. That was an immediate response to a potential threat to his people. Later on, when a dragon is sighted near a watchtower, he sends you, his housecarl and a contingent of guards to investigate and fight the dragon. Again, an immediate response to a threat to his people. In fact, I believe his steward at one point tells his not to pay attention to the dragons, and Balgruuf becomes angry and says "I will not sit idly by while a dragon burns my Hold and slaughters my people!" He also makes preparations in Whiterun, provided you take the time to ask him. He explains how the guards are increasing their patrols, training more often, and they've made sure to have water on standby for inevitable fires should a dragon attack. That is again, taking action to protect his people. If you haven't chosen sides in the civil war and need to lure a Dragon to Dragonsreach, Balgruuf not only thinks you're insane for wanting to bring a dragon to the city, but he says he'd like to help you but won't so long as the civil war is going on that could threaten his people and city with attack. Again, he's putting his people first.

4. Emperor Titus Mede II was essentially faced with a Hobson's Choice; he could either cave to their initial demands (which would have no doubt caused serious unrest in Skyrim and Hammerfell) or he could wage a withering war against a powerful enemy where no matter the outcome, they would be heavily weakened. He chose the least problematic option, which was war. He doesn't support the tyrant behavior of the Thalmor, and he doesn't think that they have the right to dictate what other can and cannot do; they've forced themselves upon an Empire unable to continue fighting the war. While the Elven army in Cyrodiil was annihilated, the Imperials suffered incredibly heavy losses. In order to preserve the White-Gold Concordat, the Empire had to relinquish Hammerfell so they could gain valuable time to rebuild and prepare for an inevitable second conflict. He was not in a position of strength at the negotiating table, and a civil war in Skyrim is potentially less problematic and costly than the resumption of open hostilities against the Aldmeri Dominion. Titus Mede II has done the best that could be done in the worst of situations, but the Stormcloaks fail to understand that.

5. If you complete the civil war in favour of the Empire, it is heavily implied that they are gearing up for an attack on the Aldmeri Dominion, since there is no love lost between the two sides. The Empire isn't even enforcing the White-Gold Concordat; to the point that the former High King of Skyrim worshipped Talos, and his reign lasted long after the signing of the Concordat. The Empire only cares about putting down the rebellion, not about Talos; that is the Thalmor's problem and theirs alone. The Empire is simply biding its time until it is strong enough to take the fight back to the Aldmeri Dominion, Tullius even admits to this.


So in short, you are completely wrong, AND you fail to understand geopolitics and the bigger picture. No wonder you're a Stormcloak supporter.

Same in my game.

Balgruuf protected his peoples religious freedom by sitting on the fence.Whiterun is a trading hub for Skyrim so neither side would be openly antagonistic towards it.The Thalmor wouldn't go all Spanish Inquisition on Heimskr because that may move Balfgruuf towards the Stormcloaks.Once he sides with the Empire that protection is lost.

Which is funny, since even if you side with the Empire, Heimskr remains just as he did before Jarl Balgruuf's decision.

I am just going by the other cities under Imperial control.They seem unwilling or unable to stop the Thalmor inquisition.

LOL little boy? Not sure if I should be insulted or not. Trolls? Do you know what being a troll is? Obviously not since I challenge you to by actual facts... since after all you accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about without showing any facts. I do love debates and by debating with you does not qualify me as being a troll.

Yes he did. The empire sold skyrim out by signing the White-Gold Concordat which one of the agreements is to outlaw the worship of talos; A clearly violation of human rights. Sorry but ever since the axe exchange I lost all respect for him when he mention that he will write to General tullius. He sold his city out.


Why do you think Heimskr is a staunch Stormcloak supporter? Because he thinks that Ulfric is pretty? Maybe because hes the whiterun's priest of Talos? His rights to worship Talos is being violated against by a weak empire who submitted to the thalmor. This is very same religion that Balgruuf side with who are very well against with (if you go with the stormcloaks) and had the imperials won (If you're with stormcloak) and the thalmor decided to head on over to whiterun guess whos going to be the first person that they would kill? The statute of talos would be destroyed because it would be against the White-Gold Concordat.
This is his edited speech. the long version can be read by going to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Heimskr
“With man? Ha! They can barely tolerate our presence on earth! Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very lives? And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! the Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people! So rise up! Rise up, children of the Empire! Rise up, Stormcloaks! Embrace the word of mighty Talos, he who is both man and Divine! For we are the children of man! And we shall inherit the heavens and earth! And we, not the Elves or their toadies, will rule Skyrim! Forever!"





On my very first character I sided up with the empire and to join the imperial legion... since I did choose to become an imperial as a choice of race after all so it kind of made sense for me to join with them. At no point did I get that feelings, especially coming from General Tullius who question Rikke regarding to the talos remark when the dragonborn killed Ulfric. She almost seemed intimidated by Tullius. I wonder what kind of lavage he has over her? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pZPJs5ZLkI. Can you please show me video evidence to back up your claims?

No i'm not wrong and I can't say that you're wrong either. We all have our own opinions that will never change. We need to accept it and move on without all the immature name callings Oh and I'm a stormcloak supporter because I don't take kindly to a group of people who was about to wrongfully execute me. I also don't take kindly to people who think they have the right to dictate who I can and cannot worship.


Balgruuf made a very bad political move that cause Ulfric to cease control his town by force. Had the imperials and the thalmor took control poor Heimskr and maybe the gray-manes would probably be executed for their beliefs.

Because, as was demonstrated in the Markarth incident, openly preaching/permitting the worship can have dire consequences. It's much better/easier for all involved to sit back and not try to arrest people, since it would only flare tensions and empower the Stormcloaks. Besides, the worship is not gone; only forced underground which doesn't help the Thalmor. Hell, even Legate Rikke demonstrates that she secretly worships Talos if you finish the civil war questline in favour of the Legion/Empire.

Some are unwilling to hide their faith to appease the Thalmor.That is the crux of the problem.

What you are propsing is people have faith in the Empires ability to restart hostilities against the Thalmor.In this it is not just Mede's decision that is problematic.
They have shown no desire to aid any province not named Cyrodil in the last 200 years or so(Ask the dumner,Redguards,and Orcs what the Empire did for them in their time of need)
The worst part of Mede's decision to sign the WGC was he was wrong.He felt he needed time to build forces to defeat the Thalmor but the Redguard's proved it was not true.

If the Empire tears up the WGC the main point of contention in the civil war dissapears and recnciliation between the Stormcloaks and the Empire can begin.
Well that will cause problems with the Thalmor you are probably thinking.Well guess what you are going to have problems with the Thalmor anyway and it would probably be bettter for the all involved if the Nords were part of the Empire.
Sadly I do not see the Empire doing this.

The idea of a noble, self-sacrificing hero is for Disney story hour, not a realistic, mature political story line. Ulfric respects Balgruuf but he makes the wrong decision. It's not personal. He needs Whiterun to take control of the country, as Tullius also realizes. The fact that he continues to allow Balgruuf to live despite the fact that he sits around the basemant of the Blue Palace talking about getting Ulfric's head on a pike, that was what seemed unrealistic to me. In all reality in a situation like this, Balgruuf would have to swear fealty or he'd be executed.

Look at the Wars of the Roses- the Towtown burial site shows a great degree of savagery in a battle which was Briton against Briton for rule of the country.

I felt the opposite. Siding with the imperials felt like siding with the milk drinkers and politicians over a nobler sort of fighter- even if the fight is still dirty no matter what. Tullius saying he was going to send Ulfric's and Galmar's heads back to Cyrodiil made me angry. If it was about Nords choosing which Nord is going to rule over the others, then that would be one thing, but Cyrodiil parading its dominance over Skyrim while using the Thalmor to police its people is quite another.

True, but the only real fire Balgruuf shows is for the imperial cause. I don't view him as neutral. He tries to hold off on showing his support for the imperials openly, but I don't get any sense that he even considers not doing so.

Almost every human in the game is a Talos worshiper, even Tullius.

I haven't done an Imperial playthrough yet and was unaware of Tullius wanting to send Ulfric's head to Cyrodil.That is a dissapointing attitude on Tullius's part

An opportunity is missed here... It would be great if when you return to Palace of Kings later on if Ulfric's permanent corpse was mysteriously decapitated, with the head having been sent back to Cyrodil.