So tricking someone into joining your side is as morally reprehensible as openly threatening them. Okay then.


That is still not enforcement.


Because, as the missive states, it could cause an unnecessary confrontation with the Thalmor and risk another war, which the Empire simply can't afford while it is dealing with Skyrim.


1. That is one city out of nine.

2. They don't stop him because he is technically allowed to via the White-Gold Concordat.


I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. Could you reword it, please?


*facepalm*

Again, the Empire CAN'T do anything about it presently. And no, they AREN'T under the surveillance of the enemy. At least, not any more than the regular deal with spies and covert operations and such. The Thalmor have the right to hunt down Talos worshippers; they don't have the right to go into Imperial logs, charters, missives, storehouses, etc.


If that is stern, then I'm the second-coming of Jesus. There is nothing in his tone or manner that suggests he is being stern. If he was being stern, he would have reprimanded Rikke, even midly.


Riiiiiiiiiight. He wets his pants over the Thalmor. Even though he makes it very clear he doesn't like them or the White-Gold Concordat. As for generals playing politician; it was incredibly common in the days of the Roman Republic, Roman Empire, and the Good Ol' US of A.


They didn't spill first blood. That rests upon Ulfric's shoulders.


1. Ralof, opening scene: "Damn elves"

2. Popular Stormcloak dialogue: "Next Imperial I see is dead"

3. Ulfric forcibly keeps the Dunmer in the Grey Quarter, and the Argonians in the Argonian Assemblage.

4. Upon entering Windhelm, you are greeted by two Nords (and Stormcloak supporters) baselessly accusing a Dunmer woman of being a spy.

5. Rolff in Windhelm blindly hates elves, and apparently loves to/wants to go to the Grey Quarter and shout slurs at the Dunmer there.

"Mind you that the Thalmor want to dictate what they can and cannot worship, and if they catch people openly amitting that they worship talos they either get sent to prison or worst killed."

There's this lovely human invention called "lying". People are capable of it.

"Knowing what the white people done with the African American back in the days I think Ulfric shows just how much he isn't a racist by allowing his dark elves citizens to conduct business and allowing them to own vendors and homes like the rest of his nord living citizens. If you can provide me with a none editorial evidence otherwise feel free to show it to me."

He still segregates the Dunmer and Argonians. You honestly don't find that to be even slightly racist? Here's UESP's article on Ulfric. There are allegations of racism in it...

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Ulfric_Stormcloak

... That are again implied by Brunwulf Free-Winter.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter

"Ulfric nor his stormcloaks are no way bona-fide racist. They're just fed up with the imperials and their partner with the thalmor trying to run their lives. Why would such person like General Telluis care for Skyrim when it's not his home land? Hes an imperial who was born and raise in Cyrodiil who obviously doesn't worship talos so why the hell would he care? He shows no compassion for the people in Skyrim, the land of the nords."

Um, yeah, they kinda are. Not all of them, but a helluva lot of them. As for Tullius, it's his duty; plain and simple. He openly admits he doesn't understand the Nords of Skyrim, but a lack of understanding does not equate to a lack of compassion.

"Yet people like your self want to call Ulfric and his soldiers racist for trying to fight back against the imperials, their failed empire and the thalmor for restoring their freedom to worship talos."

Oh, please. They're not racist for fighting against the Imperials (that just makes them short-sighted, foolish, and fueled by passion rather than logic and reasoning); they are racist for their treatment of other races.

"You know If I was in the empires position I think I would rather be executed than to sign away the rights of my people from worshiping talos."

So you would rather continue a war that people were already weary from, had already cost you dearly, and risk the utter destruction of the Empire and the potential enslavement of Man; all because of pride and religion. Awesome.

"Nobody forcefully took the empires hand and made him sign the White-Gold Concordat. Had he been a true empire he would've forced it no matter what happens. Sorry but in my world I am fighting for my freedom to worship talos without fearing (like I need to fear anyways) of being killed by the dark elves. I am fighting for my human rights along with my nord brothers and sisters including none nords who do worship talos. Ulfric may not be perfect but at least hes fighting for his people. Even some of the people in solitude thought that the high king wasn't all that great since it was the empire this and the empire that."

*headdesk*

1. Yes actually, the Emperor was essentially forced to sign the White-Gold Concordat. Yes, Lord Naarifin's army in Cyrodiil was annihilated, but so too were the Imperial Legions in the province. There was still Lady Arranelya's army in Hammerfell, Bravil had been burnt to the ground, and the Imperial City sacked and looted, and White-Gold Tower burned. You might not have paid attention, but the conditions of the White-Gold Concordat were almost identical to those of the ultimatum the Emperor initially rejected before the start of the war. He and the Empire were not in a position to negotiate on favourable terms.

2. "Fear of being killed by the Dark Elves"? Are you serious?! The Dunmer HATE the Altmer/Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion (remember, the Dunmer were originally the Chimer, the original Altmer dissidents). Seriously now, when have you ever seen a Dunmer Thalmor agent, or a pro-Dominion Dunmer for that matter.

3. Ulfric may be fighting for his people, but he is doing so in the most destructive way, ultimately harming his cause and Skyrim. It not only makes him a fool, but he also doesn't realize he is being manipulated by the Thalmor for their own ends.

4. As for the comment about the High King, you can find people in Windhelm who disapprove of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. I guess that means the Empire is the way to go.

"You're right about one thing... Their was a discussion regarding to attack on whiterun when you first enter Palace of the Kings in Windhelm, but why? Because the subborn jarl of whiterun was not cooperating."

Because Balgruuf cares about his own people, and doesn't care much for Tullius, Elisif, or Ulfric. The "stubborn Jarl" is not cooperating with an ego-maniacal blowhard? That just makes me like Jarl Balgruuf even more.

"This is war. Ulfric has his priorities of becoming the next high king. He needs all the support from the Jarls, and unfortunately Balgruuf decided to be more sympathetic for the empire than with Ulfric. According to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Balgruuf_the_Greater
“While Balgruuf claims to be neutral, it is revealed he is more sympathetic towards the Empire than to Ulfric Stormcloak, who had been a rival of Balgruuf's for quite some time. During the quest The Whispering Door, his son reveals that Balgruuf still worships Talos privately despite siding with the Empire, much like Elisif the Fair of Solitude.”"

This is another problem I have with Ulfric and the Stormcloaks; the whole "fighting for freedom" thing is really just a cover because Ulfric is power-hungry. There were/are numerous alternate avenues available to Ulfric for taking the fight to the Thalmor and fighting for the right to worship Talos, instead, he really just wants to be King and the "OMGWTFBBQ they won't let me worshipz!" is really just a tool for him.

As for Balgruuf, it's understandable that he'd be more sympathetic to the Empire. In fact, I believe I outlined why in an earlier post. And it's never stated by Elisif that she worshipped Talos; I believe she says something along the lines of "I don't worship him, but my husband did".

"Even his own son,Nelkir, hates him. I wonder why? And why does Balgruuf secretly worship talos when he could publicly do it? Had he had the backbone to fight for his freedom to do it the attack in whiterun wouldn't had happen."

I'm pretty sure most young boys hate their fathers for real and silly reasons. Also, did you ever stop and think that maybe Balgruuf felt that the safety of his city and his people trumped his personal convictions about a certain deity? Again, this makes his a better leader than most we see in the game.

"Funny when you speak your mind people call you crazy and insane."

The guy has the crazy voice, stands there all day shouting, often about things that are incorrect and/or unverified. So yeah, he's insane. A relatively harmless kind of insane, but insane nonetheless.

"I admire the man for doing what he does, to be outspoken and not be a milk drinker like Balgruuf, who worships talos in secret because hes too afraid to go open. I rather have him be Jarl then a coward who does things in such secret."

I don't think Balgruuf is too afraid to be open so much as he is thinking about his city and his people. They even comment on his neutrality and they seem to support him in it, even though they'll admit it won't last.

"So why did he question her when she mention talos guide you when the dragonborn (or Tullius) kills Ulfric? It's obviously that shes a very confused nord whos being dictated by a ruthless Imperial who feels that he has the right to invade skyrim."

*headdesk*

That isn't really questioning. He says it almost playfully. If he were really questioning her, he would have pressed the issue; instead, he changed the subject immediately.

And confused? She's actually pretty damn sure of herself and her beliefs.

3:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgcXuDw_10M

http://postimage.org/image/al0kqna0l/

And how in the bloody Hell is Tullius ruthless? Where is the evidence for this? And "right to invade Skyrim"? Did Ulfric have a "right" to kill the High King? The Stormcloaks are rebels; Skyrim is still legally a part of the Empire. It's not an invasion, and Tullius doesn't feel he has the "right"; he was sent by the Emperor. It's his duty.

"He failed to protect his people by making a political mistake. I don't think I need to be any clear on it."

That is so silly and trivial. Even though I provided several examples to the contrary, you decide that people forcing Balgruuf into making a decision between a rock and a hard place, makes it a political mistake (which is entirely subjective) that suddenly makes a him a failure to his people. Come on, dude.

"Legate Rikke would've been great... had she been fighting for her peoples rights to worship talos instead of being a puppy dog to an imperial who wasn't even born nor raised in skyrim."

Yes, she is clearly a puppy dog; that's why she helps convince him to go after the Jagged Crown when he doesn't want to, and routinely challenges him in every conversation we see.

/sarcasm

Yes lying is generally less honorable than telling it how it is.

Upon finishing the civil war quest line for the imperials, Tulius says that he's glad the war ende because now he can prepare for a new war against the Aldmeri Dominion. Hate or love the imperials, but they aren't fools. Their top priority is still defeating the Thalmors. Now they're locked in a state of "cold war" until they can deal with the Skyrim uprising and concentrate on rebuilding their legions.

Honestly, I thought Balgruuf was a complete bro. If I had my way Balgruuf would be High King; compared to the other Jarls Balgruuf is efficient, intelligent, wise and brave. The only Jarl that approaches as a leader, in my eyes, is Jarl Idgrod.

Jarl Elisif has the potential to be a good Jarl, she has a real yearning to help her people but she is lost in a job that is far bigger than she is.
Jarl Igmund seems a decent-ish sort too. He's not too bright and a bit aggressive, but his main crime is simply being less efficient than Thonar Silverblood. He gets completely outplayed by Thonar and appears ineffectual because of it.
Jarl Idgrod has wisdom and experience on her side. Her one disadvantage is that she does not seem easily able to inspire loyalty, she is not a warriors warrior and the men under her command trust her less for it.
Jarl Siddgeir is a vain waste of space, but then Dengeir appears to be suffering from a pretty major case of paranoia; even suspecting Lod (a man we know to be a staunch defender of Dengeir) of selling him out.
Jarl Skald is impetuous and overly aggressive towards anyone who does not follow him precisely, impetuosity is a very bad thing in a leader.
Jarl Korir is a small minded and seemingly stupid little man, Winterhold has the possibility of being a major player if his prejudices didn't stop him from working with the College.
Jarl Laila is self absorbed, so self absorbed that her other qualities are completely masked by her complete preoccupation with her own safety and comfort.
Jarl Ulfric is a warriors warrior, he inspires real loyalty in his men through impressive oratory and, one assumes, real bravery in past battles. But he is insular in his thinking; he may not go out of his way to hurt non-Nords but he is content to leave them to die at the hands of bandits. He also has a bit of a 'religious extremist' vibe going on, which I find very disquieting.

Compared to all those? Balgruuf is easily the most competent Jarl, he is blind to race and creed (his Housecarl and trusted advisor is a Dunmer and he has complete faith and trust in his court wizard), everything he does is for the benefit of his Hold and his People. The only point I've seen raised to question Balgruuf's qualities as a leader is the 'Chests of gold' taken out of context, I believe the exchange goes something like this:

"Was it cowardly to accept the white-gold concordat?"
"That was different, damn it, were the Jarls asked? NO! We had to accept it"
"The chests of gold didn't hurt either"

The chests of gold were not a bribe, they were an apology, of sorts, from the Empire. An attempt at recompense for the loss of a deity; obviously a rather pathetic gesture but at the same time shows the feeling of the Empire with regards to the deal. They don't like it one bit and just want people to stay on side long enough to make it right again.

Balgruuf is a true Nord and I would follow him unto death!

I'm going to be honest, this made me laugh.
Too bad every crazy shouting guy isn't true.

It's also honorable to avoid bloodshed when you can.

We don't really have the luxury of knowing that. The terms we do know do not include allowing thalmor agents to take whoever they want.



And completely legal by Nord standards. Empire hasn't interfered with their succession rites in the past, nor did they attempt to stop the duel whatsoever.


1. Are the thalmor actually bretons?

2. Popular Imperial dialogue: I can't wait to kill me another of Ulfric's boys.

3. http://www.imperial-library.info/content/decree-monument

4. Upon entering Markarth you are greeted by a man shouting "For the Forsworn" and stabbing a woman in the back. It has just as much relation to the imperials that Rolff has to the stormcloaks.

5. Good thing he's not a stormcloak then.

You should try going down to the docks and see how the dark elf in the office treats the argonians. There is some majorly bad blood there. Even Brunwulf doesn't let the argonians in the city if imperials win. It's because they will KILL each other.



Mind stating what's incorrect?



Yes Ulfric had the right to kill the High King. Torygg's court will even tell you it was legal.

Ralof is not a stormcloak so what you just said about him is invalid.
I think you misunderstood their lines. It's meant for the imperial soldiers, and not for the imperial citizens that lives in skyrim. After doing the Darkbrother hood final quests I have Cicero as my follower and according to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Cicero hes an imperial. Everytime I go past a group of stormcloak soldiers they don't even attack Cicero so again invalid.



ROFLMAO! Sorry but I gotta laugh on that one. Ulfric isn't forcing anyone to do anything. If the dunmer isn't happy living there then why don't they pack up and move to more suitable place.... like in solitude? You obviously missed out on what I wrote on my previous post.
If Ulfric was such a racist then he would've reserved all of the vendors for his nords citizens, including stores. I've spent a large quality of my time browsing through the Gray Quarters and to be honest with you I found nothing wrong with it. Maybe I don't have the king like mentality but it's something that puts a roof over your head. Maybe it's because Im not rich in the real world, and that I'm not picky on where I live. I would grab anything to keep me warm, dry and safe.

They do have a point there, and more have the right to be suspicious. They were asked why aren't out fighting with the stormcloaks and they said that it's not their war to fight. I'm certain that the Aldmeri Dominion are sending out spys to live in windhelm to send back anything new regarding to what is going on with Ulfric and the war it's self. They're quite known to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Find_the_Thalmor_Assassin to fight for their side.



How does that make Ulfric a racist?


Why should people have to lie? And not everyone wants to make it a habit of lying either since it clearly shows their mentality, and personality... which is not in good taste.
You only mention about the dunmer and the Argonians. What about those poor Khajiits whos aren't allowed to enter in any of the cities? Instead they must camp out outside the city to conduct business. If Ulfric is racist then everyone in Skyrim is racist. Can we all agree with that? I see it as being realism.



A captain must go down with his ship. As I said before I rather be executed then to sign away peoples rights to openly worship talos.

War is war. It's not pretty. The more destructive a war gets the more serious people take it. That's why japan immediately surrendered to the USA right after we dropped http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNcQX033V_M on their city. People don't take you seriously if nothing gets done. Talking often don't work and so theirs actions to be taken.

Whats wrong with being power-hungry? Do you not speak with the greybeards regarding about another dragon word to be gained? I'm sorry but that does not make Ulfric into a bad guy just because he is “Power-hungry”. We are all guilty for being this, not just Ulfric. Why do we work hard to gain perks? To gain more power to defeat more powerful creatures and humans. We work hard to gain power and the respect that we deserve. The real question is once Ulfric becomes the high king (if you side with the stormcloaks) how is he going to use the power that he sustain? Is he going to use it for the good? Or is he going to use it for evil? If he does then I will have to kill him myself. Only time will tell.
Start a new character and you soon realize just how ruthless Tullius is. He was right there when you were about to get executed. I'm certain that he was aware that your name wasn't on the execution list, and he still allowed the execution to happen. You call Ulfric power-hungry well I call Tullius execution -hungry. He gets a thrill watching people die. Hes worst than Alduin... who happen to saved your ass before getting the axe to the neck. Whatever happen to the idea that your innocent until proven guilty? Did Ulfric received a fair trial?

Yes, and that is why Ulfric held off from the invasion as long as he could and gave Balgruuf one final chance to decide. But if its a choice between fighting or agreeing to a peace treaty that makes the empire and skyrim weaker and the thalmor stronger, then fighting is the choice that in the long run will result in less deaths.

I did feel bad I admit. What made it worse was who he was replaced with Vignar Gray-Mane. Seriously I do not have a lot of confidence in him. Granted my character is leader of the Companions and he is a companion himself (or at least he is always hanging out in Jorrvaskr) but I would have rather had Thorald Gray-Mane take over. He deserved it after what the Thalmor did to him, but apparently he remains in hiding even after the Stormcloaks take over.

I wish the Jarl could have been turned, but then the only differences between the two campaigns, whether to attack Whiterun or defend Whiterun, would have been taken away. It's bad enough that all the other civil war quests are basically identical.

Ralof IS a Stormcloak, Raizen Sama. That's why he's in the cart with Ulfric, Lokir, and the Dragonborn....

Raizen, it's the Altmer that primarily make up the Aldmeri Dominion. They despise Dunmer, in fact.

The problem with that is that the WGC makes Thalmor stronger and the empire weaker. Thalmor are allowed to travel freely in skyrim, are given prisoners when they ask for them, and bribe Jarls and the wealth class with parties and chests of gold. Getting time to rebuild wont work when the enemy is gaining faster than you are.

Not to mention Tullius doesn't command the legion. The emperor does. And since he's dead and the elder council has been demonstrating itself to be corrupt as hell. I don't hold much hope on that regard.

Amen to all of the above steelbadger, my favorite Jarls have to be Balgruuf, Igrod(old people can get away with anything) Ravencrone, and Falk Fire-Beard...oops, I meant Elisif. Jarl Elisif means well, but has to realize that she has no time to mourn. At least not with Ulfric posturing in Windhelm, the Thalmor operating with impunity, and Gen. Tullius not even considering her worthy of consult. She does have potential to be a decent Jarl, and possibly a Queen.

Elisif should marry Falk. And thanks for the nice nod to us old folks! (And, heh.... the Emperor is NOT dead in my games.... nor will he be.)

True that Serethil, they would actually balance each other out perfectly, her social graces and sometime eloquence, and his bon honimie, common sense, and humility.

Yah. I actually like Elisif and Falk the most out of all the "nobles" in the game. She's - nice. She obviously is grasping for some hold on life after Torygg's death, but is doing her best in a role for which she was never trained. And Falk is just plain a good guy. He's a bit above "down to earth" but he's certainly not too highbrow to deal with "non-nobles".

Give me a Moot. I'll fix the whole damn shebang! (Uh. Don't mind me, I've had quite a bit of good wine tonight....)

I thought I was the only one.

I put my faith in the Empire, first and foremost. Even thinking about the situation at the basest of levels will give a clear indicator of what's to come. A fully united empire, hammerfell and skyrim included, incurred such losses that the WGT had to be signed. Now that Hammerfell is no longer part of the empire, say that Ulfric wins, and claims his sovereignty. Now you have 3 seperate nations, to be eliminated one by one by the Altmeri Dominion. As was stated, fighting for the legion, and winning the civil war, leads Tullius to talk about his next moves- against the Thalmor, with an Empire that now holds the mountainous region of skyrim, which is a definite tactical advantage.

As to the White Gold Concordant, what option did he have? Yes, hammerfell reached a stalemate to the Thalmor, but at the time the main focus was on Cyrodil. They would be eradicated eventually.

Anyone that would rather have their people ruthlessly slaughtered, their rights stripped from them, and their citizens enslaved as thralls just because the Thalmor want to outlaw Talos worship is a fool.

Hammerfell is no longer in the empire.

The Nords have lost religious freedom,the right of self rule,and the legal system is less than stellar atm.The Thalmor have free reign to imprison torture and kill any Nord they suspect of Talos worship without a peep from the Imperials.The only thing that hasn't happened that you described in your doomsday scenario is the enslavement.

Why do you believe the provinces not under attack by the Dominion would sit on their hands and wait their turn to be destroyed?

At least someone here knows what their talking about.

The emperor isn't doing jack about it and neither did the high king (before he was killed by Ulfric). Balgruuf may not like Ulfric, but sometimes you must join forces with the person that you don't like for the betterment of the people in skyrim. Balgruuf is known to be quite stubborn, and unfortunately it cost an attack on whiterun. Again he made a very bad political mistake by letting his stubbornness comes first rather than the people in his city, and now his rights as Jarl has been removed and is replaced with Vingar Grey-mane. Had he been more cooperative Ulfric wouldn't had ordered Galmar and his men to cease control of whiterun.

But he did put his people first, that is why he refused to let either side garrison troops inside his city. If he let's the stormcloaks in, the imperials attack. If he let's the imperials in, the stormcloaks attack. If he didn't care about the people in his city and hold, he would have taken a side and focus on nothing but the civil war.