Exactly. I'm glad someone else understood.

I am the same. I did both sides of the civil war quest (I was curious to what would happen with the Imperials) but I did not feel happy and as a Star Wars fan LOL it did feel like I was going over to the dark side (I really did not like killing the lovely Glamar and Ulfric either)

Yup, Sending Ulfrics head to Cyrodiil is horrible, and besides if they really want to use it as a threat to keep away people from uprising then surely it would have been better to have sent it to Solitude (I am sure that would have pleased Elisif)

I didn't feel guilty... I expected better of him, im the one that basically saved his town and housecarl from becoming dragon lunch, im the one that storted out his son ( sorta )

he knew i was a stormcloak when i delivered Ulfrics axe, yet he still made the wrong move based on his personal dislike for Ulfric.

I enjoyed killing Tulius. Sure Balgruuf may have been one of the better Jarls, but considering he is replaced by the equally as good Vignar Gray-Mane, I have no regrets over kicking out Balgruuf. Plus Whiterun won't be ruined when one of Balgruuf's snot nosed brats takes over when Balgruuf dies if he is in charge.

I didn't feel guilty either, and in fact considered Balgruuf's comments to be a cheap shot based on his apparently having assumed that because I helped Whiterun earlier, I couldn't possibly have a different view of the overall situation than he does. It was almost as if whoever wrote that particular bit of dialogue based it on his/her opinion rather than the one Balgruuf is supposed to have, which is a major sin in script writing; you always write from the point of view of the character, not the author, since the whole point is to have the character respond the way he or she is meant to.

During the axe exchange itself, I felt there was a big missed opportunity given the fact that Balgruuf is currently fence-sitting. When you give him the axe he does not immediately respond, but since you don't get to say anything about why it was given you can't convince him to back your side and avoid a needless battle. If they had given you that opportunity, they could have then run with it and let you use the fact you'd swayed him over as a means to (at least try to) influence the Jarls that are more firmly opposed to you to come over as well. Obviously some would refuse, for various reasons, so you'd have to fight no matter what in the long run, but at least you could try to minimize the slaughter.

I enjoyed killing Ulfric. Sure ulfric was a decent leader and was in the end doing what he thought was right. But considering he was replaced by the better free-winter. I have no regrets shouting ulfric to death. Plus windhelm wont be ruled by one of ulfrics racist officers when if the stormcloaks do win, will kill him in a coup .


Edit: Just messing with you Dont mean anything.

Brunwulf Free-Winter is a nice man whose pacifism is going to doom Eastmarch. It's all well and good to put major resources into prettifying your city, but not during a war. He never once mentions the Thalmor or what he plans to do about the Dominion.

The irony in thinking that racists take over if the Stormcloaks win is that several of their jarls have more non-Nords in their households than their imperial counterparts. Laila Lawgiver and Sorli the Builder, for example.

You still have to admire him for in hours of taking the job, meeting with the Dummer of the city and promising to help them, also hes putting windhelms econmic problems before its millitary, And yes i do agree with you that there is a good deal of non racist jarls on both sides, but think, Galmar Is a racist and he is Ulfrics second, He is also a idiot, what if the Thalmor could "use" him to kill Ulfric? after there done with him? And due to the war skyrims econmy has gone to hell, with out a good econmy the armed forces will diminsh.

I don't see any indication of Galmar being racist and he's certainly not an idiot since a lot of the war plans come from him.

Brunwulf is not building the economy, he's just doing neighborhood improvement. Nice in peacetime, improves PR, but dangerously useless when there is such an existential threat as the Dominion looming.

He states it himself that he has to rebuild Windhelms economy and repair the damages.
And give me a couple of mins ill attempt to find the quote for you.

Ulfric didn't want to kill Balgruuf. He gave Balgruuf a choice. Join us. Balgruuf was allowing open worship of Talos. He was trying to play both sides against the middle. He was taking bribes from the Empire not to join Ulfric. Those chests of gold didn't hurt. He wouldn't help you capture a dragon unless you held a peace conference. Yet Ulfric wasn't going to attack Whiterun at that time. Mede II was already dead (in my game). So why all the drama? He says he owes you but he won't help you. So you deliver the axe. Then he says he's siding with the Imperials who've paid him. And still Ulfric doesn't execute him. Vignar Grey-mane replaces him. Vignar is a good man. Elisilf remains jarl of Solitude. And depending upon what you did with Markarth, in my game the current Jarl was not replaced by the Silver-Bloods, but was instead blackmailed into supporting Ulfric.

With most kingdoms, the leadership changes, but the bureaucracy just keeps chugging along. Ulfric is not High King, yet. that's after the Moot.

With an imperial victory, the Thalmor have their inquisition all over Skyrim. That was not something I wanted.

Tullius is the millitary govenor, Tullius has control over a legion, Tullius hates the Thalmor, Tullius argues with the thalmor in the beginig because the thalmor want Ulfric stormcloak released, Tulluis denies there request, Its heavily implied that like many people worships talos in secret.

And your idea of the Jarl of whiterun taking bribes from the empire is silly at best, He puts whiterun first, it starts off neutral, whiterun is threatned by Ulfric, He then joins the empire to save whiterun.

Balgruuf never denies he took the gold, just says he had no choice but to accept the WGC. He's not neutral- he's an imperial who's trying to put off the time he has to declare that as fact.

Balgruuf is a Nord trying to stave off another war. He is doing everything to keep everything neutral to protect the people of Whiterun and Skyrim.

like many other Nords he believes in the worship of Talos but that is not enough to tear apart Skyrim or the Empire over.


btw my nord charater joins the Empire for the same reason.

I don't think Galmar is racist either. He's just too hawkish. His reasons for being angry are fine, but there are better ways of resolving a dominion threat, other than directing his "your either with us or against us" attitude against other Nords. It's stupid writing really. In a realistic situation, most rebels wouldn't turn their guns so easily on the very people they claim to be fighting for. These kind of movements tend to strike at the heart instead. If they're supposed to fight the dominion, then they should get started on it, and stop wasting everyone's time. You never see this in the game.

Take the story of American colonies, for example. There were a lot of Americans who took different sides towards the English. The rebels started small attacks on the British themselves, didn't expect everyone to join "right away", and wrote a lot articles trying to plead with people, things like that. They never gave up trying to help their fellow countrymen see the light. You don't ever see Galmar do this. He just wants to kill people as a first course. Ulfric is the least of the problems of the Stormcloak movement. It's the low level racists and the stupid old men, like Galmar.

I had some things I wanted to post, some points to make.... but by the time I got through reading three pages.... I forgot what they were. Mostly.... I think each person should play this game however it FEELS right to her - without having everyone else try to change her mind, with all the attendant hyperbole....

I feel sorry for Balgruuf. He was caught between a rock and a hard place. If he let's the imperials garrison troops, the stormcloaks attack and try to take Whiterun. If he sides with the stormcloaks, the imperials attack and try to take Whiterun. Both ways lead to his hold becoming a warzone, his town getting sieged, and his people caught in the middle. Can't blame him for looking out for his people, unlike some jarls...

Yeah I felt guilty, he's like a scolding parent, except, you know, not as annoying. Anyway, he had to go, all for the glory of the stormcloaks

All too true.... Now of course, someone's going to say "well, that's what happens in a civil war...." Oh, I remembered one thing I was going to say: personally, I'm never doing the civwar again on any toon. It wasn't fun, it won't EVER be fun. I don't care if Tullius is in bed with the Thalmor, or Ulfric is a racist. They can do whatever they want to do in their own dark little corners. In my games, not only are there no dragons, there's no civil war either. Heh. With no dragons, though, Balgruuf doesn't know me.... but that's fine too - his town remains intact, and His Nobleness is sitting firmly on his throne, carping at Avenicci about being an idiot, and snarling at his brother for trying to push him into a war.

And what's this about him having children by several wives? If he didn't KILL the wives himself, who the hell cares? Oh, and another off the wall question: if he's Balgruuf the Greater, who's Balgruuf the Less? Yeah yeah, I know.... non sequitur....

I'm not usually one to change anyone's mind, but the war is ultimately stupid. This is a fact in the game. Everyone wants to fight the Thalmor, in one way or another. How about just getting to business and doing it then? That's all I suggest.

Oh, I agree in main. But in fine.... I just do NOT want war in my games. I don't play games for that. I play games to defeat bosses in dungeons. There's enough war IRL that I don't EVER want it in my games.

There were quite a few attacks against "Tories." The American Revolution started out not only with attacks on British occupying troops but with skirmishes between royalist and revolutionary militias. No offense but what you're presenting here is a rather naive view of how civil wars generally go. I also mentioned the Wars of the Roses upthread- a bitter, drawn-out war for succession in Britain. I could point to many such examples in Norse history, as well. The civil war in the game is nowhere near as brutal as many of the historical examples.

Galmar is a hawk, to be sure, but also keep in mind that they have waited 30 years for their uprising and the Stormcloak rebellion has been going on for a couple of years (according to the former Stormcloak in Falkreath). Galmar's point is that the time for dithering is over and that jarls like Balgruuf need to take a stand one way or another.

Keyword there is "militias". I think even Ben Franklin's own son was in one of these (he actually went out of his way to ask for their pardon later, I think. Although it fell on flat ears). A lot of these early revolutionaries were like Franklin, where they also operated part time as academics or worked in printing presses. Sometimes writing under pseudonyms. They tried many ways to get to people's hearts, rather than force them at gunpoint.

edit: lol "flat ears". i mean, fell flat on deaf ears.

Okay... but they also fought actual battles, too, and royalists were forced out of the country if they wouldn't join the cause.

I hate Ulfric!! If I join the Imperials can I still own a home in Windhelm??