Yeah, but you'd have to take the imperial side to completion. Which, I suppose, you want to do anyways.

You didn't present any facts; only baseless accusations forged out of your personal feelings on the subject. Why would I have initially shown facs when you yourself failed to do so? And that wasn't a "debate"; it was a poorly executed explanation for supporting short-sighted and impassioned racists (Stormcloaks).



No, he did not. The Empire didn't really have a choice when it signed the White-Gold Concordat. How do you fail to understand that? Their cities were burned and looted, their armies utterly decimated, several legions exterminated in their entirety, and weariness had set in after four years of fighting. And a violation of human rights? This is Tamriel; not the United Nations. And of course he wrote to General Tullius; Tullius isn't the one threatening him with attack. You might have forgotten, but you first enter the Palace of the Kings in Windhelm, you become privy to a discussion between the bloodthirsty Galmar Stone-Fist and Ulfric Stormcloak where they openly admit to planning an attack on Whiterun. And ultimately being forced to choose a side in a civil war is hardly "selling out".


Yeah, his right to worship is really being infringed upon as he preaches in front of a Talos statue and shrine.

Yes, the Empire is weak; read through the history of the Fourth Era to find out and understand why. They pretty much had to submit to the more powerful enemy. Did the South want to surrender to the North in the civil war? No, but they essentially had to. Did Japan want to surrender in WWII? No, they were ultimately forced to. Such is life and history.


Hey, guess what? Even if you don't choose sides in the civil war, Whiterun is left alone, even though the Thalmor have free-reign to stamp out Talos Worship in the Empire. And guess what? No matter what side you choose in the civil war, Heimskr lives and continues to preach and no Thalmor intervene.


1. Heimskr is insane.

2. He's using the age-old trick of propaganda.

3. The Thalmor only have the authority to stamp out Talos Worship which will fail since it forces it underground, which ultimately ensures its survivial.

4. The Empire can't do anything because it was essentially forced to sign the White-Gold Concordat, but if you talk to the Imperials, they hate the Thalmor as much as anyone and if you complete the civil war in favour of the Legion, Tullius reveals that there are already plans in the works to fight the Aldmeri Dominion soon. The Empire needed to buy time in order to accomplish two crucial objectives; ensure the survival of the Empire as an entity, and to have enough time to rebuild troop numbers, fortify defences, etc.

5. Heimskr is completely wrong when he says the Empire enforces the will of the Thalmor. Not once, ever, are Imperials encountered searching for Talos worshippers. Even at Helgen, Tullius explains that the rebels and Ulfric face the chopping block because they are traitors and in the case of Ulfric, murder of the High King; not because they're Talos worshippers. Thalmor patrols and their prisoners are never encountered with Imperial soldiers; they operate completely independently. If the Empire is indeed enforcing the will of the Thalmor, they are doing a colossal failure of a job.




LMAO, seriously? You call that "questioning" and "intimidation"? Tullius says it almost playfully, and she even explains (calmly, I might add) that it was nothing, and that she's just saying goodbye. If Tullius were really serious about questioning her and trying ti intimidate her, he would've pressed her about the issue, and/or warned her never to say it again. Instead, he immediately changes the subject. Not exactly something you do if you're trying to question someone or intimidate them. Come on, man.

As for my "claims", could you be more specific?


You said that Balgruuf failed to protect his people. I proved you wrong on that. So, yeah, you're wrong.


I'm guessing you're referring to "little boy" and troll? Where I'm from, little boy is an expression, and saying someone is a troll is merely identifying a creature known to exist on the internet.



And I don't take kindly to selfish, short-sighted, egotistical, impassioned blowhards who pride and honour before logic, reasoning and planning. It's why I like Legate Rikke; she understands the big picture.


I agree, which is why I took the fight to the real criminals; the Thalmor.

Your line of thinking, and the line of thinking of the Stormcloaks and their supporters is eerily similar to that of the Taliban; "if they are not with us, they are with the enemy, even if they are our own countrymen". The Stormcloaks have no problem killing their fellow countrymen in the name of "Freedom" and under the guise of pushing out an "oppressive and corrupt regime", which has generally left them alone. Just because people may not be with the Stormcloaks and/or oppose the Stormcloaks, does NOT mean they are actively aiding the Thalmor.

"Balgruuf made a very bad political move that cause Ulfric to cease control his town by force. Had the imperials and the thalmor took control poor Heimskr and maybe the gray-manes would probably be executed for their beliefs."

Ulfric was preparing to take Whiterun by force anyway. And as we see if you side with the Empire, Heimskr and the Gray-Manes are still there, free as ever to worship and speak ill of the Empire and elves.

Kvatch is probably still burning if you load up Oblivion.
Using the Heimskr is still there arguement should be colored by the fact Bethesda doesn't seem to change much in the game world.
If you go by other Imperial held towns the Thalmor are very active in hunting down Talos worshippers.

You are correct that the Inquisition has not made an appearence in Whiterun.Reasonable people can see that it is coming.

The only character in Skyrim I felt an actual connection to. Yeah, I know.

The only character in Skyrim I felt an actual connection to. Yeah, I know.

Balgruff is one of the few characters that actually develop a character in the game. One of the closest to the dragonborn actually.
What about Brunwulf, he seems to be honorable but who knows?

And Bruma's Mages Guild too So you indeed shouldn't base arguments on what does and doesn't change in the game.

Personally i recently finished the Stromcloak side, and still support the empire. Ulfric and his Stromcloaks are more willing to fight the empire (and makes better speeches ), but an united empire has a better chance against them. Tullius does say that they will start preparing for the inevitable second round with the Dominion.

And yes, Balgruuf's surrender was pretty moving, good thing killing him wasn't required.

Or you can go to Castle Dour and be privy to a conversation where Tullius says Rikke should lie about her intelligence if necessary to manipulate Balgruuf into accepting imperial troops.

They don't need to enforce it- they let the Thalmor do it for them. Thorald Grey-Mane was kidnapped from Whiterun and Tullius knows about it, will do nothing to intercede for him. Ondolemar is skulking around Markarth trying to frame Talos worshippers and while no one helps him, they don't stop him, either. If you talk to him at the embassy, he says how convenient for the Thalmor that the empire made Talos worship into treason as well as heresy. Even if they were forced to do it, the empire still is cooperating- even writing propaganda against the Talos cult- and it's not just a social problem. Talos is their strongest weapon and in attacking his cult they're participating in their own demise.

It doesn't matter that this or that person has escaped the noose for whatever reason- the Thalmor are determined to eradicate Talos worship and all their words to the contrary, the empire shows no sign of doing anything about it. Even if they did plan to build their armies back up, they'd be doing so under surveillance of the enemy. Good luck with that.

He doesn't say it playfully. He says it sternly. The man wets his pants over the Thalmor. It's fine if you see it as just what he has to do, but to see a general play politician so much is distasteful to me.

Oh, please. A war does not happen unless there are two sides and the imperials are taking Nord lives, too, and forcing Balgruuf's hand as much as Ulfric does.

Feel exactly the same. After this, I`ll never play stormcloaks again. I believe the Jarl of Whiterun was just doing a balancing act of survival for his people while Ulfric was more about power and his popular talk of `Skyrim for the Nords` was just to get brainless support whether it destroyed his country or not. Any politician knows that if you want popular support just say "My country is just for Nords!" or whoever and you`re guaranteed at least 50% of support!

p.s. Insulting someone by calling them `little boy` over a game discussion is uncalled for and should be penalised.

There is really no need for sixist, rude remarks like this.

The more I learn about Balgruuf the more I realise that he wasn't too scared to make a decision about sides, he had his valid reasons. I originally thought him a coward. Now I feel even worse for making him surrender.

Except Ulfric doesn't say that. He wants Nords to rule themselves without imperial interference. That doesn't equate to "my country is just for Nords."

Ulfric wants Skyrim to be ruled by Nords only, not Skyrim occupied by Nords only. This doesn't mean that we'll have non-nords being forced out of Skyrim, but it worries me how people like Galmar will influence him when he's on the throne.
A noticable amount of Nords on the Stormcloak side are prejudiced against other races, and might see Ulfric's cause less as 'getting rid of imperial influences' and more as 'kicking out all those other races'.

I don't see any more evidence of this on the Stormcloak side than on the imperial. Just look at Solitude. It doesn't get more lily Nord than that.

I wouldn't say lost the war. They beat the Thalmor at Imperial City, but knew they couldn't hold out for much longer. Thats why a treaty was signed. Sure, the THalmore got the better deal out of it but it was a treaty, not a loss to either side

Neither have you. At least I tried submitting video clips. What have you done? Calling Stormcloaks racists huh? How exactly are they classified as being racist? Mind you that the Thalmor want to dictate what they can and cannot worship, and if they catch people openly amitting that they worship talos they either get sent to prison or worst killed. Knowing what the white people done with the African American back in the days I think Ulfric shows just how much he isn't a racist by allowing his dark elves citizens to conduct business and allowing them to own vendors and homes like the rest of his nord living citizens. If you can provide me with a none editorial evidence otherwise feel free to show it to me.

Ulfric nor his stormcloaks are no way bona-fide racist. They're just fed up with the imperials and their partner with the thalmor trying to run their lives. Why would such person like General Telluis care for Skyrim when it's not his home land? Hes an imperial who was born and raise in Cyrodiil who obviously doesn't worship talos so why the hell would he care? He shows no compassion for the people in Skyrim, the land of the nords.
Yet people like your self want to call Ulfric and his soldiers racist for trying to fight back against the imperials, their failed empire and the thalmor for restoring their freedom to worship talos.



You know If I was in the empires position I think I would rather be executed than to sign away the rights of my people from worshiping talos. Nobody forcefully took the empires hand and made him sign the White-Gold Concordat. Had he been a true empire he would've forced it no matter what happens. Sorry but in my world I am fighting for my freedom to worship talos without fearing (like I need to fear anyways) of being killed by the dark elves. I am fighting for my human rights along with my nord brothers and sisters including none nords who do worship talos. Ulfric may not be perfect but at least hes fighting for his people. Even some of the people in solitude thought that the high king wasn't all that great since it was the empire this and the empire that.


You're right about one thing... Their was a discussion regarding to attack on whiterun when you first enter Palace of the Kings in Windhelm, but why? Because the subborn jarl of whiterun was not cooperating. This is war. Ulfric has his priorities of becoming the next high king. He needs all the support from the Jarls, and unfortunately Balgruuf decided to be more sympathetic for the empire than with Ulfric. According to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Balgruuf_the_Greater
“While Balgruuf claims to be neutral, it is revealed he is more sympathetic towards the Empire than to Ulfric Stormcloak, who had been a rival of Balgruuf's for quite some time. During the quest The Whispering Door, his son reveals that Balgruuf still worships Talos privately despite siding with the Empire, much like Elisif the Fair of Solitude.”
Even his own son,Nelkir, hates him. I wonder why? And why does Balgruuf secretly worship talos when he could publicly do it? Had he had the backbone to fight for his freedom to do it the attack in whiterun wouldn't had happen.


Funny when you speak your mind people call you crazy and insane. I admire the man for doing what he does, to be outspoken and not be a milk drinker like Balgruuf, who worships talos in secret because hes too afraid to go open. I rather have him be Jarl then a coward who does things in such secret.



So why did he question her when she mention talos guide you when the dragonborn (or Tullius) kills Ulfric? It's obviously that shes a very confused nord whos being dictated by a ruthless Imperial who feels that he has the right to invade skyrim.


He failed to protect his people by making a political mistake. I don't think I need to be any clear on it.



Legate Rikke would've been great... had she been fighting for her peoples rights to worship talos instead of being a puppy dog to an imperial who wasn't even born nor raised in skyrim.

A couple things wrong with this post...

1: Ulfric himself is not racist, but some of his followers show prejudice towards other races.

2: Tullius DOES worship Talos, as does Rikke. And a Talos shrine near the Rift Imperial Camp has items left by Legionarres on it, so alot of people in the Legion still worship Talos.

3: The Imperial City was barely taken back by the Empire, Cyrodill was up in flames, and the legion was decimated. Even if they could fight, I'm sure everyone would rather focus on rebuilding and making sure their families are safe than somehow defeating an Aldmeri Dominion that was in a far better shape.

4: The last time someone important made a big deal about publicly worshipping Talos, the Thalmor found out and started enforcing the Talos ban even more. Guess who it was? Ulfric Stormcloak himself.

5: Generally when a man stands in the same spot every single day and shouts the same thing over and over again, they are regarded as being a little off their rocker. You can be insane and worship Talos, you know.

6: For all we know, Tullius was just wondering what Rikke said. But implying that Tullius is bullying Rikke into helping him 'invade' Skyrim is ridiculous. When you ask Rikke why she is helping the Legion, she says she believes that Skyrim would be better off staying part of the Empire, like most nords thatstillsupport the Empire.

7: The Empire is not invading Skyrim. Skyrim is still considered an Imperial province and are allowed to send in soldiers and have them garrison inside towns if they need to. The only reason the Legion is present in such large numbers is because Ulfric killed the High King and has convinced half of Skyrim to secede. Obviously the Empire will support the Jarls who are still on their side.

8: Baalgruuf was just trying to avoid any bloodshed. As a Jarl, his sole duty is to protect his hold and the people in it. If he joins one side, the other would attack him leaving his hold ruined and alot of his people dead. Both Tullius and Ulfric were attempting to 'coerce' him onto their respective sides, but Ulfric made the mistake of threatening to attack him.

9: As I've already mentioned, Rikke already stated why she fights for the Empire. And if Ulfric wants to fight for the right to worship Talos so much, he shouldn't be fighting the Empire but the Dominion.

Hope this clears some things up.

Who are you talking about? Quote please. And dont say Rolff. He is not stormcloak.

> 6: For all we know, Tullius was just wondering what Rikke said.

I'm pretty sure that he did hear it and that his comment was meant as an, "Officially, I should not be hearing that, so what did you actually say?" prompt, to which her "Just saying goodbye," was enough to allow him to officially forget about it.

He does seem to be a play-by-the-book sort, even when he doesn't like what that book says.

Its called being a good soldier. Another thing I dislike about the numberg Trials, some of those bastards deserved to die, but I honestly beilved that a good deal were just following there orders.

I didn't go quite that far but it was my last Stormcloak ( not the only reason though)

"Never again!"

Interesting. I was thinking the Empire was more like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France. The parallels are striking. All you have to do is switch the names of the principals involved.

To the OP, yeah, it was a punch to the gut, and it may be why I haven't taken sides yet on my current character.

Like who? Not one Stormcloak said anything prejudice towards the dark elves, just mention that they're not going to be bossed around by a bunch of elves telling them what they can and cannot worship. As what svann mention Rolff doesn't count. He maybe the brother of Galmar but that does not make him a stormcloak.
If you truly want to see racism look at the Thalmor. http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/Raidensama/Skyrim/TESV2012-02-1813-50-34-11.jpg



According to what is written at http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_General_Tullius
“He also takes little interest in Nordic culture and lore and thinks it is nonsense; at the end he will learn to respect it, but will never get used to it.”
Talos is apart of the nordic culture which Nords takes serious. Why do you think many of the nords are joining up with ulfrics army? I highly though that Tullius is a Talos worshipper, this includes his imperial soldiers. If our USA soldiers go to the middle east... do they become Allah worshippers? Not likely. If you can guild me through evidence (I google it up and found nothing) that he is a talos worshipper than feel free to mention a book in the game that I can buy. I do not believe for a moment that he and his imperial legion with an exception of Rikke, since shes a nord are talos worshippers.

Wouldn't it make more sense to side with your enemy (The stormcloaks) to try to fight against them? The Aldmeri Dominion are the biggest threat to human kind in skyrim. They would kill you if you openly admit to worship talos. Who wants to live in tyranny?



Ulfric Stormcloak wasn't going to let some snotty elves from stopping his people from worshipping Talos. I solute the man. Now that's what a high king should act. Not be a weakling like the empire.



Well all know just how talented and highly skilled the Beth writers are


It doesn't make sense for Rikke to say that Skyrim is better off staying part of the empire when the very same empire help ban the worship of talos signing the white-gold.



Didn't you read my last post? Baalgruuf already sided up with the empire and Ulfric and him had bad blood way before the attack on whiterun. Ulfric made no mistake.



I must admit that I wish Bethedsa made an option to not kill Telluis so they (Both Ulfric and him)can temporary join up to fight with the thalmor. I would LOVE to see that happen but obviously it didn't.

Let me make this clear, Talos worship isn't a Nord only thing. Talos is made up of a few humans, Tiber Septim being one of them. If you don't know who he was he brought all of Tamriel together (The only one to accomplish such a feat.) and became the first Emperor of the Third Empire, the current Empire. And after his death he became apart of Talos. So guess who the Empire is going to worship, Talos.

You really aren't looking at the whole picture here. The Thalmor don't merely want to enslave man, (Just a stepping stone.) they want to kill them all. Not just that, but to destroy the world. Do you honsestly think all these kingdoms fighting independently will win? They will lose, this is what the Thalmor want, for the Empire to fall apart. The Empire is what is keeping these kingdoms united and the Thalmor at bay. Break apart the Empire and the Thalmor will rise. You could argue that Hammerfell broke away and are doing just fine for themselves. But they were only able to force the Thalmor into a stalemate (The Redguards are renowned for their combat skills). If the Thalmor take the rest of the Empire do you honestly believe Hammerfell will hold out? I don't think so. If the Stormcloaks win and become independent who will come to their aid when the Thalmor finally make war on them? No one, that's who. It's true, in the the game the Thalmor state they want Skyrim to stay divided for as long as possible and would try to keep either side from winning. That way crushing either the Empire or Ulfric when the time comes will be easy. But let's say the war ends early, whose victory do think would benefit the Thalmor the most, Ulfric's. Divide and conquer, a simple and yet most effective tactic.

You make it seem like the Empire signing this treaty is them giving up. They aren't, there is a difference between total defeat and living to fight another day. They're playing it smart. If there was truly no hope for the Empire then I'd agree with you and say they should just go out in a blaze of glory but this isn't the case.

Hate the Empire all you want, but if it falls Thalmor will most likely get their way with the world. And I'm sure you hate them even more.

So just because you disagree with how Baalgruuf did things that means he didn't do all he could for his people? That's pretty silly when people could say the same of Ulfric. But I'm not going to go there since I don't see it that way. Both Ulfric and Baalgruuf did what they thought was right for their people it's just that they both saw things differently. I sided with the Imperials but even I can say Ulfric was an honorable man and worth my sympathies since I know of his tragic past.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Prophet. That man didn't know what the hell he was talking about.

Love makes you do crazy things.