If you think the entire point of the thread is to point out that not 100% of quests have markers, mission success. You can go now.
The argument that "I can decide to go out and do stuff, call it a quest, and thus disprove that all quests have markers" is just stupid, there are journal-logged quests which don't have markers, which is an argument that is infinitely more relevant.

"What you do see, is go straight on from here. When you pass a green house with a funny mailbox, youve gone too far, you need to go left before that.
Eventually youll pass Steadman's farm, only thats called New Dunroamin now, and then you go right on the village square.
Youll have to ask again there Im afraid, but theres usually some old woman selling chickens there anyway"

This, even though its paraphrased, is roughly the direction I got from a local last time I went camping.

What do you mean people dont give directions like people?

I'm a fool for telling the truth? Sorry, I guess that's the computer programmer in me. I see things true or false. I don't like half-truths. If I'm called a fool for correcting falsehoods, then that's fine by me.



Well, hopefully because of this thread, there are a few more who have been corrected.

I have never had somebody give me directions using a map, ever.
I've never done so, either.

No its not reading what I wrote, even though you seem to have highlighted it.
And blast, now I broke my promise of no longer replying to your.. well, I dont know a nice word for it.
Your way of discussing.

A: Driving directions make sense to relate in such a way, since roads are named and organized. "Turn left on Park Avenue" makes a lot more sense than "Walk mostly north through the field and look for a bush with orange flowers."

B: Just because someone gave you these directions, doesn't mean it makes any sense. Had you had a map with you, or a GPS, you wouldn't have needed such directions. If you are adventuring around in Skyrim without a map, you're not thinking very clearly. It's not like you can just pull over at the nearest 7-11 and make a phone call.

Good, glad you've admitted it. But where I come from the loser goes home. Don't let the door hit ya.

I think you're exaggerating. You don't need to give directions every step along the way, that's exactly why some people got lost in Morrowind. But the Skyrim map showcases no road, and any adventurer would like to know if he has to go across a mountain, river, or cliff. I mean, the guy wouldn't just say get there. He'd say, there's a mountain you need to get through with the help of a passage, or you need to take that road and cross the river there. Things like that are the minimum to someone who doesn't know the land. It's not like a compass and a map can do everything and show you the way around major obstacles. Sure, you can do that by yourself, but when helping someone out to find their family ring in their ancestral tomb, you don't want to do the whole work for them. You agree to fetch the thing from the crypt, but you don't necessarily want to figure out how to get there when there's loads of mountains, rivers, ravines, cliffs, valleys, waterfalls and such.

Right, I hear you. BUT:
If the quest givers in Skyrim pointed you to a spot on the map that you were supposed to get to, AND gave you some idea of where to go to get there, how much complaining about the complete lack of involvement on the players' parts would we see?

I think most Skyrimmers would prefer to find a way around that mountain on their own, without the NPC saying "Oh, well the best way to get there is to go through a pass to the east."
I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't think people would like that very much.

Truth? You're a fool for misinterpreting the meaning.



And you bolded the part about major quests, which is very true. All the quests without markers are either minor ones, or very, very minor if we stretch our definition to yours.

Skyrim has roads too.
Im saying that people give directions like people, and in that they often add a lot of fluff and nonsensical or counterproductive things.
Just like when people talk to people is very different from people talking in a book.
Even if someone marked their ancestral cave on my map they would likely go: You just follow that road until about that landmark and then veer off into the woods.
Skyrim does not do that.
It just marks it on your map like a GPS.
Thats a missed opportunity as far as Im concerned, to flesh out the world and the people living in it.

I think the quest markers in Skyrim actually make sense in cases when they're used. In every case I've been in, the NPC giving me the quest knows exactly where the location is when he gives it to me. It would only make sense for him to say, "hey, let me just mark that on your map for you". It wouldn't make sense if the NPC told you about some "rumored" sword to the east and then mark the exact dungeon on your map. I haven't seen any of these that truly defy logic though.

I'm confused, there are quests in skyrim that don't have quest markers, the quest that do have quest markers can be turned off, "but then I can't find something", sure you can, you just have to think about it. "Some quests are impossible", let's get one thing straight, just because you could not finish a quest without quest markers, does not mean no one else can, seriously, you are not the best humanity has to offer.

There are quest in Skyrim, the vast majority of them in fact, that cannot be completed without quest markers.

"Go to Hrolf and tell him about Angmar."
My quest log says.
Good luck on that one then.

Most? I doubt that. Otherwise don't you think it would be weird to refuse directions to retrieve something for someone? You still need to get there. If you want to go ''skyrimming'', you don't need quests to do so. Or you can just ignore the directions. I like exploring the wilderness, but when doing quests, I like it to know where I'm heading. I like to know if I should stick to some important road, rather than just going east where I need to. I think quests are a great way to know more about the region and how it ties itself together. Pure adventure and exploration is there otherwise.

Ok, you make perfect sense, but think about what you are asking for. Would people really complain less if Skyrim both marked the map AND explained how to get there? Or would you see people complaining even more.

Like Johnny, I don't think you are wrong on this. People do that. However, I don't think gamers would like it very much. Part of the challenge is in figuring out the way to get to that spot that you were shown. I prefer to just check the map to see where the spot is, and then go.

Now if the journal just... added some entries with general directions somewhere for me to look at that would probably be fine. I hate this journal that we have. It keeps track of exactly nothing about the quest I'm on. I think it's the worst "journal" that's ever been in a TES game. Most of the time I look back at a quest entry in my journal and it's something like "Talk to Henry about Mark."

Thank the almighty LORD for that, Bethesda. Who the heck are these people again? Where did I meet them? Have I even met either of them? Why am I doing any of this, exactly? What did this quest giver actually say? So little information in the journal that it's absurd.

So if you want more text in the journals and fleshed out stories for the quests, then I'm 120% in agreement.




I think this post addresses this as well.

Some quests are impossible to complete in the sense that there are no in-game clues telling you where to go (I gave an example earlier in this thread; I can give many others). In such instances, your only option is to just wander the map in the hope of randomly happening upon the target location. You have to admit that that's pretty stupid.

I'm willing to bet the quest-giver gave you more information than that to go on.

Most? I doubt that. Otherwise don't you think it would be weird to refuse directions to retrieve something for someone? You still need to get there. If you want to go ''skyrimming'', you don't need quests to do so. Or you can just ignore the directions. I like exploring the wilderness, but when doing quests, I like it to know where I'm heading. I like to know if I should stick to some important road, rather than just going east where I need to. I think quests are a great way to know more about the region and how it ties itself together. Pure adventure and exploration is there otherwise.



Or:
''Go retrieve the white phial''

Skyrim needs to have a custom personal journal that you can write in yourself. If they had that, I think it would solve most of these issues. You could write in it yourself after a quest is given to remind you what you're supposed to do.

With about 50 active quests in my log and three weeks playing, who knows?
That is sort of the point, you see, one needs to rely on quest markers because there is no adequate other information stored.

Also, I have encountered many, many quests that do not even give any kind of directional info in the dialogue stage.
Particularly in the misc. quest section, but a surprising number of 'big' quests as well.

I'm not asking for every single quest to give no marker and for teh onyl directions to be "past the Old Woman and her flowers."

I just want the quests to be more detailed than: "Bandits, Cave, Kill, Come Back, Reward."

I want it to be, "In Glenbrook Cave, there a group of Bandits, Its north of the town in the mountains, you have to cross the bridge or ford the river to get to the proper side though." *Quest Marker added*. At least thsi way teh game feels more realistic, and allows me to play with or without the compass. Another example is the first 2 DB quests. The contract literally gives you a name, and then tells you to kill them. They don't even mention a location and thats ridiculous. It's just follow the marker.

Yea, the miscellaneous qeusts can be the worst. You get a mysterious note from a traveler saying "Meet me at alligator point."

"Oh, cool! A mystery! I have to figure out where alligator point is! Oh... it's on my map already, somehow..."

Seriously, can't we at least ask one person if they've heard of alligator point? That is very frustrating.

In the old days, RPGs required you to write your own notes on paper to remember things. Perhaps it would help if you kept a notepad handy.

OR, even better, slow down on your quest gathering. That's how I play. I keep a max of 10 quests or so in my log and knock them out before moving on so I can remember them.

Or perhaps, oh I dont know.
I know a game made about a decade ago that did this better in every regard, with detailed, logical and easy to follow directions that were all stored in your log to be read whenever you wanted.
So basically I have to revert to Daggerfall style of quest logging because in ten years time Bethesda forgot everything about making a decent quest log and decent directions, as if Morrowind never happened.
Thats progress