Tired of the "quest hand-holding" complaint : V - Skyrim

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:25 am

The method I have found quite enjoyable is to leave the quest markers active, but disable the compass in the .ini

When the random npc asks you to go to the fortress of doom to collect a pint of milk, you open your map and look at where the quest marker is pointing. As the map doesn't zoom in that close it gives you a rough idea where the location is, so you just think its east of town on the north side of that lake, or its a way south close to that village I passed a few days ago. When you close the map you have no magical compass guiding you to your location but you have a rough idea where it is, so you head off in that direction and explore.

Its not a perfect system and it would be nice to have a little more written detail about some of the locations. I just find its more enjoyable than wandering blindly or using the all seeing compass.

Besides, how many fantasy heroes have a compass stuck to their forhead :wink:

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:38 am

How can you still not get the point? Let me break it down for you:

1) We're saying that there are quests that can't be completed without the marker.

2) You're saying that there are quests that can be completed without the marker.

Do you understand how 1) and 2) are logically independent statements?

Still don't understand why I'm called a "troll" if he agrees with me. Herp derp.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:02 pm

Haha, I'll accept your surrender then if all you have left is to play semantics, and incorrect ones at that.

"Virtually every single quest" is not the same as saying "every single quest" and in fact the use of the word virtual there is explicitly included to admit the small number of marker-less quests I admitted to in the first paragraph. I'm surprised you couldn't understand something that simple.

Yeah, you got ninja'd there. See above, I already answered that.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:35 am

Yes, by definition the game provides "quests" in the form of entries in the provided journal interface. As your argument crumbles around you despite your attempt to dominate the conversation by making every other post on this thread, I'm not surprised by your existential fallback to try and redefine what defines a quest.

I understand there are other tasks to be undertaken in the game such as exploring on our own, gathering crafting and academical ingredients, finding someone to marry, amassing a certain amount of gold etc etc etc and there are no "quest markers" for how to accomplish these things, but frankly absolutely these are not quests. Google "Skyrim Quests" and you will see that literally (maybe you can find the one exception on page 8 of the results or something) every reference to "quests" is referring to the entries in the player journal.

Just because you can decide to go check out some city on your own and maybe find some item you are curious about does speak to the quality or mechanics of the journal provided quests whatsoever. If you have a strong imagination and can invasion yourself on some epic quest undertaking of your own design then I applaud you but realize that you are pulling a serious Bill Clinton in your attempt to redefine "IS"... or "quest" in this case.

Amen.

And those ''quests'' have never even been the point of the debate anyway. It's like we try to debate about something with him, but then drags us in another irrelevant debate.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:23 am

Look, at the risk of completely derailing this thread, I am just trying to point out that my definition of "quest" does not have to include a formal marker or journal entry to be so.

Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? He found his father missing, his house ransacked, and his old journal lying there. Dr Jones had no formal "quest introduction", he simply had a journal with some scrawled notes to go by. That's exactly the kind of quest I'm referring to that are found abundantly in Skyrim. If I find an old map, or a scrawled note, or a book describing a lost artifact, and I decide to set out to find or solve that mystery, am I not embarking on a real "quest", just like in the movies and books we love?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 am

Opinions can't be false, herp derp. I like ice cream. false. I like cars. false. I like introspective reasoning. false.

This thread is dumb. true.

Of course opinions can be false.
That everyone is entitled to an opinion doesnt ensure that they are not totally and hopelessly wrong.

I can be of the opnion that the world is flat until the sun burns out, its still globe shaped and doing orbits.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:43 pm

Look, at the risk of completely derailing this thread, I am just trying to point out that my definition of "quest" does not have to include a formal marker or journal entry to be so.

Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? He found his father missing, his house ransacked, and his old journal lying there. Dr Jones had no formal "quest introduction", he simply had a journal with some scrawled notes to go by. That's exactly the kind of quest I'm referring to that are found abundantly in Skyrim. If I find an old map, or a scrawled note, or a book describing a lost artifact, and I decide to set out to find solve that mystery, am I not embarking on a real "quest", just like in the movies and books we love?

But this is completely irrelevant to the quest marker complaint.

For the last time: we're not complaining that EVERY quest needs the quest marker to be completed.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:54 am

I happen to love the compass and fast travel. I explore the world when I want to hunt for ingredients, ore, leather, etc. When I do a quest I wanna know right where it is so I'm not running through the wrong cave or ancient city. The only real complaint I have so far is not being able to deviate from the major plot lines. If I want to kill Ulfric I should be able to kill Ulfric, the Jarls or the members of the Thieves Guild....really everyone in the world should be able to fall under my blade.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:43 pm

But this is completely irrelevant to the quest marker complaint.

For the last time: we're not complaining that EVERY quest needs the quest marker to be completed.

As stated in my OP, that's EXACTLY the complaint I've been hearing: "I hate how every quest in Skyrim holds your hand like a baby". Guess what, NOT every quest in Skyrim holds your hand like a baby. Get it?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:48 am

Look, at the risk of completely derailing this thread, I am just trying to point out that my definition of "quest" does not have to include a formal marker or journal entry to be so.

Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? He found his father missing, his house ransacked, and his old journal lying there. Dr Jones had no formal "quest introduction", he simply had a journal with some scrawled notes to go by. That's exactly the kind of quest I'm referring to that are found abundantly in Skyrim. If I find an old map, or a scrawled note, or a book describing a lost artifact, and I decide to set out to find or solve that mystery, am I not embarking on a real "quest", just like in the movies and books we love?

This literally has zero impact on the argument at hand.
This is a discussion on the mechanics and methodology of the journal as it governs in-game quests.
I could pick a piece of cheese off the ground and set off to find out who dropped it, and call it a quest, but it still has literally nothing to do with the journal (The entire point of this discussion).

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:33 am

This literally has zero impact on the argument at hand.
This is a discussion on the mechanics and methodology of the journal as it governs in-game quests.
I could pick a piece of cheese off the ground and set off to find out who dropped it, and call it a quest, but it still has literally nothing to do with the journal (The entire point of this discussion).

It has to do with the argument at hand because I started it. The argument has ALWAYS been about realizing that there are quests in the game that do not rely on map markers. It was people like YOU who derailed my thread to begin with.

Good grief people! This is why I hardly ever post, I can't argue with those who can't use their brain.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:46 am

And you can not have an active quest, disable markers and the compass if you want.

Yeah I must say, while the OP doesn't make much sense, people do need to stop complaining. Because if you turn off your markers (Which I think is exactly why they gave you that option) then you are far less guided. Sure, the places are still almost always blatantly told to you through dialog or something, but you at least have to find the place on the map, and your way through to the objective without an guidance...

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:05 am

Look, at the risk of completely derailing this thread, I am just trying to point out that my definition of "quest" does not have to include a formal marker or journal entry to be so.

Remember Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade? He found his father missing, his house ransacked, and his old journal lying there. Dr Jones had no formal "quest introduction", he simply had a journal with some scrawled notes to go by. That's exactly the kind of quest I'm referring to that are found abundantly in Skyrim.

We got that. What you don't get, is that we don't care about those ''quests'', that there are quests that are impossible to complete if you disable markers, other than exploring every undiscovered location on your map. Or that there is no way to know the easier way to get there. You know, sometimes when going in a straight line, you encounter a mountain, or a hard to cross river, etc. The roads are limited, aren't showcased on the map, so sometimes you reach a point and wonder how to get there. You find a way, sure, but no one tells you "it's easy to reach location x, exit the city take road x on your right, cross the river, follow the road around that mountain, take that little off-road path when you reached this waterfall near the woodcutter's camp, when you reach the slopes of the mountain x, look around for a passage to the other side, and then it should be in that valley somewhere, you might see the ruins from a distance." And using these directions, it's like faster than going in a straight line and realizing you need to cross that river, go south for a good 5-10 minutes, and then you have a steep mountain in your face. Even if an adventurer has a location on his map, it's a bit foolish to get there without directions, particularly when it's not located in Cyrodiil.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:32 pm

As stated in my OP, that's EXACTLY the complaint I've been hearing: "I hate how every quest in Skyrim holds your hand like a baby". Guess what, NOT every quest in Skyrim holds your hand like a baby. Get it?

Are you familiar with the concept of hyperbole? It's a common device that people use in everyday language. When people say "ugh, every quest needs that [censored] marker", what they're actually saying is that "it feels like every quest needs the quest marker to be completed".

The fact of the matter is that, in my experience and apparently in the experience of many others - namely the "complainers", a LOT of quests in Skyrim can't be completed (in a reasonable way) without using the quest marker.

That's all.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:01 am

It has to do with the argument at hand because I started it. The argument has ALWAYS been about realizing that there are quests in the game that do not rely on map markers. It was people like YOU who derailed my thread to begin with. Good grief people!

This in no way mitigates the fact that without quest markers, you cannot progress the majority of any quest.
And as far as I have found in 150 hours of gameplay, there are very, very few quest sections without markers and they are always of the 'search these immediate surroundings' variety.

There are no detailed written or spoken directions in this game.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:43 am

We got that. What you don't get, is that we don't care about those ''quests'', that there are quests that are impossible to complete if you disable markers, other than exploring every undiscovered location on your map. Or that there is no way to know the easier way to get there. You know, sometimes when going in a straight line, you encounter a mountain, or a hard to cross river, etc. The roads are limited, aren't showcased on the map, so sometimes you reach a point and wonder how to get there. You find a way, sure, but no one tells you "it's easy to reach location x, exit the city take road x on your right, cross the river, follow the road around that mountain, take that little off-road path when you reached this waterfall near the woodcutter's camp, when you reach the slopes of the mountain x, look around for a passage to the other side, and then it should be in that valley somewhere, you might see the ruins from a distance." And using these directions, it's like faster than going in a straight line and realizing you need to cross that river, go south for a good 5-10 minutes, and then you have a steep mountain in your face. Even if an adventurer has a location on his map, it's a bit foolish to get there without directions, particularly when it's not located in Cyrodiil.

I don't give a damn if you don't care about them. I'm just saying that they ARE there, and people who whine about "every quest holding your hand" are simply lying or haven't played the game long enough to realize it's false.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:05 pm

No quest with no marker eh... Hmmmm

"Find someone who will tell you about this unusual gem" - Map Marker greyed out.

I use the so called GPS and still have fun... 100+ hours in and I have still got lots to do. Now if I had to follow the OP's method I would be getting irritated because I couldn't find where to go.

Now while I find the GPS is fine what I don't much care for are the puzzles in the game. The pillars that have to be turned until they form a correct pattern to open the door... hmmm, now where would I find the answer... Oh, look, they helpfully marked the answer over the top of each pillar. :banghead: I'd rather have something like a Tomb Raider type of puzzle that is not so easy and needs a little bit of thought. For those who can't figure it out they could have some way of getting hints... maybe ask their companion? But for role players it would be better if the puzzles had more meat on the bone than find the lever open the door, smash the bad guys, loot the chest, home in time for tea type of dungeon crawling.

So in short, GPS = Fine, Puzzles = Lame.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:18 am

Are you familiar with the concept of hyperbole? It's a common device that people use in everyday language. When people say "ugh, every quest needs that [censored] marker", what they're actually saying is that "it feels like every quest needs the quest marker to be completed".

The fact of the matter is that, in my experience and apparently in the experience of many others - namely the "complainers", a LOT of quests in Skyrim can't be completed (in a reasonable way) without using the quest marker.

That's all.

Yeah, hyperbole is typically used when someone is misrepresenting or exaggerating facts to push a false agenda. That's what I'm trying to point out. To me, it actually "feels" like most quests don't have quest markers.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:46 am

I don't give a damn if you don't care about them. I'm just saying that they ARE there, and people who whine about "every quest holding your hand" are simply lying or haven't played the game long enough to realize it's false.

Well, if youre not interested in listening to other peoples experience, and if you only want to push the same disproven statement over and over again then I see no need to continue posting in this thread.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:30 pm

As stated in my OP, that's EXACTLY the complaint I've been hearing: "I hate how every quest in Skyrim holds your hand like a baby". Guess what, NOT every quest in Skyrim holds your hand like a baby. Get it?

Then you're a fool for seeing it that way. You went into semantics about defining quests, but these people probably don't view your logless quests as quests, thus this whole argument is irrelevant to their point. Then, even if not all quests have markers, that complaint either means people are pissed every single quests have markers, or the vast majority of them, or either. You just read things too literally, come on. Using the word ''every'' can be only to make a point at how frequent those quests with markers are, compared to the others. The point still stands that a lot of people think all the major quests holds your hand like a baby, and not just the major quests, but like 95% of the quests.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:24 am

You must be playing a different game. Virtually every quest has a quest marker. I appreciate that the developers included an option in the INI file to disable quest marks, but I tried playing without them for a while and there are some quests were you are essentially required to use the quest marker.

Why? Two primary reasons. One: there are no "directions" given for quests ala Morrowind. You are always simply told "Go here, do this." When was the last time a quest giver referenced the path to an objective using landscape, rivers, mountains or other dungeons/caves? You were commonly told things like "Head east for a while until you see a small grove of trees then look for a door in the hills to the north" or whatever in Morrowind. The other reason: lack of conversation with NPCs to get directions. You used to sort of get in the general area with directions and then be forced to have some dialogue with NPCs (and use Speech I might add) and get more specifics on the location of your quest item/person. All of this is now gone in favor of the quest marker.

What I do now is leave the markers enabled in the INI but don't select the quests in my journal unless absolutely necessary so I am forced to do a little exploration on my own. Disabling quest markers was only half the battle though, they needed to add more directions and explanations to actually be able to have a chance at doing the quest without the marker.

When's the last time someone gave you directions like that, other than some old fashioned driving directions? People don't do that, especially if you aren't following roads and streets. If you were actually a freelance adventurer in a rugged land like Skyrim, don't you think you'd have a map and compass? Ya.

And if you had a map and compass and Quinn the Quest Giver wanted you to go to her family tomb to clear out some zombies or whatever, do you really think she's likely to say "Go down the path until you see three big trees, go left into the woods until you hit the funny looking rock, then west pash the purple mushrooms."

C'mon people. No. If her family tomb is out in the woods like that, she's just going to say "Here, let me see your map for a second. Oh yea, right about here."

Some of the people that are wishing for the days of Morrowind's navigational directions based on rocks and plants are just patently ridiculous. That's not how people help each other find things at all.

Here's what I do to keep it fun:
I check my map to see where the quest marker is pointing me, then I uncheck the quest in the journal. I get an idea for where the place is based on the "finger point" that the quest giver gives me, then I go and find it.

That's pretty realistic, and it preserves a fair amount of challenge.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:16 am

Yeah, hyperbole is typically used when someone is misrepresenting or exaggerating facts to push a false agenda. That's what I'm trying to point out.

I don't think anybody has been trying to push the "agenda" that every quest needs the marker. It only takes about a couple of hours of gameplay to realize that that's false.

Our "agenda", which is definitely legitimate and not "false", is that many, many quests need the marker.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:46 am

This in no way mitigates the fact that without quest markers, you cannot progress the majority of any quest.
And as far as I have found in 150 hours of gameplay, there are very, very few quest sections without markers and they are always of the 'search these immediate surroundings' variety.

There are no detailed written or spoken directions in this game.

That's not true. I've completed several quests without quest markers. Is this hyperbole again, or straight up lying?

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:48 pm

Yeah, hyperbole is typically used when someone is misrepresenting or exaggerating facts to push a false agenda. That's what I'm trying to point out. To me, it actually "feels" like most quests don't have quest markers.

And how is that misrepresenting or pushing a false agenda? If you feels like most quests don't have markers, either you are not playing the same game or your're making quests in your head.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:38 am

That's not true. I've completed several quests without quest markers. Is this hyperbole again, or straight up lying?

How many is "several"? Because let me tell you, the amount of quests I've completed that required the marker faaaaaaaaaaaaar outweigh those that didn't.