Unique loot does not feel UNIQUE

Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:18 am

And some gear is actually kind of boring. Take a look at all the Mage robes, for instance; in Oblivion and Morrowind you had Hort-Ledd's Robe, the Robe of the Conjurer, Aegis Robes, the King of Worms' Robe, the Deceiver's Finery, Robes of the Drake's Pride and so on.

In Skyrim? It's some variant of of or just generic robes (plus Thalmor robes, which are static). About the only unique one is the Archmage's robe and that's a poncho.

WTB more unique stuff for mages.
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Leonie Connor
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:34 pm

Unique loot is fairly pointless when it doesn't scale to your level (or completely removes the option of improving it with your smithing skill). Even my old rusty steel sword will deliver more damage than random daedric weapons and weapons found in various locations.

^^^^ that ...
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Benjamin Holz
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:42 pm

I have always, always wanted a sword I could enchant with Candle or Mage Light.

Especially if it was in Oblivion where the caves were actually dark.
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maya papps
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:51 am

It's just plain trolling when everyone does it.
Are you serious?
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Wane Peters
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:36 pm

You don't need more than one maxed out craft, namely blacksmithing, to blow the shorts off of every unique in the game. And it doesn't even have to be maxed, and you only need to have two or three moderate +smithing items you bought from a vendor, and a +50 smithing potion- a number of which I've looted or stolen just laying around in the gameworld. You don't even need to have done ANY enchanting or alchemy, at all. Armed just with those things, you can improve easily-made ebony and daedric weapons (and any armors you care to mess with) to be markedly superior to all unique weapons and armor. Of course, you can use these same methods to improve a number of the uniques to be almost as good, but none will be any better.

Unique items should be better than anything you can craft, period. What is the point in having them in the game, if they're not? They just turn into wall decorations or get put on the mantlepiece, because they are inferior to easily-crafted stuff. This trivializes them to the point of wondering why they even bothered adding them in, to be honest. Crafting should never be more than a means to *moderately* improve items, whether they be normal items, created items, uniques, or whatever. They should have made it so that no combination of crafting techniques could improve any item more than maybe 25 or 50% above it's base level, and unique items should start out at maybe 20% better than the best equivalent normal item in the game.

So, instead of crafting normal ebony or daedric weapons that can very easily be improved to be 200%, 500%, or thousands of % if you want to get whacky (but still well within the 'normal' capabilities built into the game, mind you), you would have reasonably improved weapons that would do quite well for most situations, until or unless you discovered one of the notably better uniques... which could also be improved moderately to maintain their proper damage lead over the pure crafted gear that's been upgraded. So, by doing this, you get rid of the crazy-stupid overpowered craft gear, you make uniques valuable and desireable again, as they should be... and you make game balance MUCH easier, since you maintain a logical and intelligent damage range un-F'ed-up by the current crafting mess.

Crafting, in any game, is secondary. It is a mini-game for occasional distraction from the usual dungeon diving and questing and whathaveyou. It was not intended, and should never be intended, to overshadow all other methods of item acquisition in a game, especially not to the point where it makes bothering to look for non-crafted gear a moot point and a waste of effort, and entirely removes any interest from the looting aspect.
Since, as you admitted at the end of your first paragraph, you can improve the uniques to almost the same level as the best hand-crafts, then I don't see how you can also claim that said hand-crafts blow the shorts off of said uniques. That being that case, I would submit that the gap between them is not as large as its being made out to be.

To turn your second point around: if the stuff you can find is always markedly superior to the stuff you can craft, then why bother having the crafting skill(s) in the game? If both unique items and crafted items are to be present, then neither can be allowed to be significantly better than the other if you wish to avoid the risk of trivializing one of the two. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to be equal, though, as there is definitely a case for allowing the uniques a slight advantage due to their nature.

I'm all for reining in the excesses crafting is capable of, as it really does get insane, but at the same time I cannot support the reduction of crafting to a minor adjunct of looting. After all, if the skill is to exist it must also be relevant, and if all crafting is good for is improving loot then it will become entirely useless in short order, due to the total lack of big-ticket money sinks making improving items for sale pointless after about L15 or so.

I do agree that crafting should not overshadow looting, but at the same time looting should not be the be-all end-all of item acquisition, as there is a place for both in that department.
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Matthew Aaron Evans
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:44 pm

And some gear is actually kind of boring. Take a look at all the Mage robes, for instance; in Oblivion and Morrowind you had Hort-Ledd's Robe, the Robe of the Conjurer, Aegis Robes, the King of Worms' Robe, the Deceiver's Finery, Robes of the Drake's Pride and so on.

In Skyrim? It's some variant of of or just generic robes (plus Thalmor robes, which are static). About the only unique one is the Archmage's robe and that's a poncho.

WTB more unique stuff for mages.

Robe of the Apprentice and Robe of the Conjurer were just enchanted versions of the standard robes. The King of Worms' robe was essentially a Necromancer's robe. The Arch-Mage's robe wasn't even enchanted, or unique!

In Skyrim you don't have many unique robes either, but it's not like you're without choice. You have blue and black robes, college robes, Thalmor robes, the 'Novice Robes of Destruction' etc. robes, the Arch-Mage's robes, the Necromancer's Robe and the random 'robes of SCHOOL' that enemy mages sometimes wear, just to name a few.
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Brιonα Renae
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:28 am

Since, as you admitted at the end of your first paragraph, you can improve the uniques to almost the same level as the best hand-crafts, then I don't see how you can also claim that said hand-crafts blow the shorts off of said uniques. That being that case, I would submit that the gap between them is not as large as its being made out to be.

To turn your second point around: if the stuff you can find is always markedly superior to the stuff you can craft, then why bother having the crafting skill(s) in the game? If both unique items and crafted items are to be present, then neither can be allowed to be significantly better than the other if you wish to avoid the risk of trivializing one of the two. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to be equal, though, as there is definitely a case for allowing the uniques a slight advantage due to their nature.

I'm all for reining in the excesses crafting is capable of, as it really does get insane, but at the same time I cannot support the reduction of crafting to a minor adjunct of looting. After all, if the skill is to exist it must also be relevant, and if all crafting is good for is improving loot then it will become entirely useless in short order, due to the total lack of big-ticket money sinks making improving items for sale pointless after about L15 or so.

I do agree that crafting should not overshadow looting, but at the same time looting should not be the be-all end-all of item acquisition, as there is a place for both in that department.

Matter of taste, I guess. I do believe crafting would still be quite relevant and valuable as a secondary skill, for improving all of your various items. Whether the best item you have is a normal, a blue, or a unique, crafting would be valuable for the ability to improve it. I, for one, would still be quite interested in smithing, even if the most you could do with it is raise the base damage of your weapons by 50% max... that's still a LOT of beneficial goodness, there. But I see no reason to make smithing easily capable of creating items from scratch that are the equal of the best uniques. That simply takes way too much away from the 'looting in the wild' aspect of the game, in my opinion.

By the way, none of those uniques that I improved with smithing, were as good as the normal ebony or daedric ones. Close, within 5 or 10 points sometimes, but always on the short end of the stick. And it greatly depends on what level you are, when you find the unique. If you find it after level 30, you can get a fair imrovement on it to be comparable to a run of the mill ebony weapon. If you get it earlier, any improvements to it will be much weaker, since the stats on uniques depend on what level you are at when you get them. So, unless you deliberately put off all those quests and dungeons where the uniques are lurking at until after you are 30, any improvements you make to them will never come close to the quality of plain old normal ebony+ smithed items. Which is sad.
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Ebou Suso
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:49 pm

I hated that in Oblivion and Morrowind, to an extent, you had to ultimately upgrade to equipment you may not want. At least in skyrim i can play as a barbarian type character and my fur and nordic looking stuff remains useful all the way through. In Morrowind i had no choice but to ditch furs and opt for Glass. All the other light armors were too weak.

In the end its a tradeoff: Have various useful stuff early on that can last through the whole game such as in Skyrim and have the look and protection you want for your character, or have the 'progression' of finding unique and powerful items that may or may not suit your character the way it was in Morrowind. I personally like the Skyrim system because steel, steel plate and other humble items can offer good protection through the game
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Robyn Howlett
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:19 am

i agree with most of the people here, i miss the unique and hard to find loot of morrowind. i loved going to the urshilaku burrial caverns and levitating and falling onto a ledge and finding megabane a unique 2h glass claymore, it gave me a great feeling. same goes with water walking and seeing a dwemer ruin under water swimming down and exploring it, to find a dragon bone cuirass and in the same place finding a unique potion called the potion of heroism and thats in one dungeon.

nevermind trying to hunt down the ONE complete daedric set, it just made you feel like an adventurer now you just have to create a [censored]load of iron or steel daggers get some ebony ingots and bam you can make a whole set of daedric armor.

someone said on another post about how bethesda adds some stuff and takes away stuff, this sense of accomplishment and the thrill of finding a unique piece of armor or a unique sword found in a hard to reach area in a dungeon cannot be replaced
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*Chloe*
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:43 pm

I hated that in Oblivion and Morrowind, to an extent, you had to ultimately upgrade to equipment you may not want. At least in skyrim i can play as a barbarian type character and my fur and nordic looking stuff remains useful all the way through. In Morrowind i had no choice but to ditch furs and opt for Glass
. All the other light armors were too weak. In the end its a tradeoff: Have various useful stuff early on that can last through the whole game such as in Skyrim and have the look and protection you want for your character, or have the 'progression' of finding unique and powerful items that may or may not suit your character the way it was in Morrowind. I personally like the Skyrim system because steel, steel plate and other humble items can offer good protection through the game

in morrowind though their was the cuirass of the saviors hide and the boots of the apostle that had 266 armor ratings. the curaiss of the saviors hide was in some closet which made finding it very awesome, it was totally unexpected you dont get that same feeling in skyrim IMO
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Danii Brown
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:59 am

I've always felt one of the underlying problems with TES is the overabundance of generic magic items. There are literally a ton of magic items littering the game, to the point none of them feel particularly special. Another issue is the pressure to constantly upgrade gear. I'm not talking about improving what you've got, but literally swapping it out for the better stuff that becomes more readily available at higher levels. It prevents your character from developing a more unique image and feel because your equipment often changes completely after a few levels. I don't like the look of much of the high level gear and refuse to use it. However, I do so knowing I am putting myself at a great disadvantage because Glass/Ebony/Daedric equipment has stats that completely dwarf the lower level gear. Except, of course, when comparing weights, because everyone knows that as a blade becomes more effective its weight mysteriously doubles. :blink:

Then again, I've always been annoyed by the way the game caters rewards to specific character types as well. There are always a lot more unique swords than any other weapon type. That probably wouldn't be so bad if it didn't spill over into quest rewards. Think Wuuthrad and Dragonbane. I mean, gods forbid my character favor heavy plate armor and a mace and shield. As soon as people realize I'm the savior of the world I get rewarded with the perfect weapon to defeat the enemy. By the way, I hope you wanted to start looking like a Samurai!
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Jynx Anthropic
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:08 am

That's the real problem with crafting systems in general. I still don't think you should be able to craft Daedric.
Good point.

Well i agree that the unique items, kinda look like the normal deal *cough*Woodsman's Axe*cough*
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Caroline flitcroft
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:03 am

Engraved Ring of Healing
Shard Battle Axe
Firebite Dagger
Silver Goblet
10+10 20+20 Septims (gold) = 60 Gold.
Plus a unique ring called Mentor's Ring. All this found in the very beginning of Morrowind. When you start exploring Seyda Neen. You tell. Does this look like unique loot? .. Now you know who the King of Loot and real RPG is. Now you know. So don't even bother. And yes. Skyrim Quests are boring. My little 9 year old brother give me better quests. :biggrin:
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Mike Plumley
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:55 pm

Robe of the Apprentice and Robe of the Conjurer were just enchanted versions of the standard robes. The King of Worms' robe was essentially a Necromancer's robe. The Arch-Mage's robe wasn't even enchanted, or unique!

In Skyrim you don't have many unique robes either, but it's not like you're without choice. You have blue and black robes, college robes, Thalmor robes, the 'Novice Robes of Destruction' etc. robes, the Arch-Mage's robes, the Necromancer's Robe and the random 'robes of SCHOOL' that enemy mages sometimes wear, just to name a few.

There were only two versions of the archamge robe; one was Traven's, the other was Mankar Camoran's.

My point is that the robes unique in that they had their own little tidbits of history attached to them; sure the robe of the apprentice was a standard green robe, but it symbolized your status among your peers. Then there were ones like Mankar Camoran's robes.

Skyrim robes are all kind of bland; the robes have generic enchantments, the college robes and adept's robes look the same and have the same stats, and there's almost no variety. At least Oblivion had different retexturings for most robes; the Archmage's robes actually looked regal, for one. Compare with the Skyrim archmage robes, which look like a Mexican shepherd's poncho.

Af=dmittedly, this can generally be blamed on Skyrim's bland enchanting system.
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Brittany Abner
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:55 pm

Admittedly though, Skyrim has a greater variety of staff models compared to Oblivion's tree branch....but after getting the Armamentarium and MC's Staff Pack (which replaced all Oblivion's staff models with Armamentarium models), that's a bit of a moot point. I do wish Skyrim had more unique staves like the Staff you get in Saarthal, though. Something you get from exploring.
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willow
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:07 pm

This is to me perhaps the most serious shortcoming of what is otherwise a groundbreaking engine and game with remarkable potential.

It seems they were aiming to take so many of the RIGHT things that make MMO’s so appealing. A crafting system where you can actually use the things you gather to make other useful things (though they could have expanded on it a bit more for certain.)

But the total lack of diversity in armor is difficult to comprehend, how they could have overlooked such a critical element of immersion. In previous titles you could even mix and match, which would make even being limited to five or six armor types more interesting as you didn’t have to wear ALL of that armor set (at least the most visible body/legs part anyway.)

I see that new armors are beginning to emerge in the modding community, so the tools must be out there somewhere to import/export from 3D programs. It just isn’t common knowledge yet…

What is REALLY needed however is an overhaul like OOO combined with how OWCND (and the example someone gave of the shield from Morrowind) have back stories for various armor or items, and you have to quest to collect them, or pieces at a time.

The biggest draw of MMO’s is the constant promise of “new loot,” not only to make you more powerful, but to represent an achievement, that you had to have the skill and a group with the ability to take down a certain raid boss to win that loot. Plus even WoW has caught on and added a transmog system to allow customization of the look of gear, because that is also of utmost importance and in some ways, as in the role playing aspect, even more important that just being more powerful.

Just diversity alone is NOT enough. I don’t want a pair of steal plated gloves called “Gloves of Outstanding Awesomeness.” They’re steel gloves. They use the same model, the same texture, and are for all intents and purposes the same as any other steel gloves. Putting a fancy name on them just feels meaningless.

I want gear that is diverse enough that it speaks to the uniqueness of my character, defines who my character is by the unique path they have chosen.

In a game designed to “do what you want, be who you want,” the lack of that critical element of originality, achievement, and personal “style” is perhaps the most disappointing thing of all about this awesome game, which is why I sincerely hope a MASSIVE armor and related quest overhaul is in the works for a serious DLC.
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Len swann
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:39 am

Common, for me it is just okay.
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LittleMiss
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:07 pm

just another reason in a long list of reasons that I'm for waiting for a major overhaul mod before even thinking about touching this game again. They just got so much wrong
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Marie Maillos
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:52 pm

yeah as much as i love skyrim have to agree on this
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Nana Samboy
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:15 pm

I've been avoiding crafting skills, aside from alchemy, and some of the random/leveled items can be a huge find. It also makes one appreciate the unique items that can be found. Gauldur's Amulet comes to mind...also that Hammer with a weapon speed enchantment? There are a lot of useful unique items, depending on your playstyle.
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John N
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:34 am

I feel the same, only time you really hunt loot down is for merhunes razor, and I want more swords that are like crazy, so that we all can have more unique characters instead of dawn/dusk fang
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Sam Parker
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:40 pm

OP, your original post brought back great memories of sneaking into a guard house (I think?) to steal Ordinator armor and failing time and time again. What happened to that? Why don't I want to steal someone's powerful armor or weapon in Skyrim?

I think there needs to be more uncraftable armors (Daedric should be uncraftable) and more armors in general (Mithril, Chainmail, Chitin, unique guard armor). Armors that are uncraftable should be rare dungeon loot or only attainable by stealing.

Quest rewards should have either unique effects, or very powerful regular effects. Many of the legendary items rewarded are fabled as creating great warriors and mages, turning tides of battle, so there effects should represent that.

In Morrowind, despite playing for countless hours, I never saw a piece of Daedric. I can't imagine how freaked out I would be if I found a piece while dunegon-diving. Skyrim did a much better job at rationing Daedric than Oblivion (where about every bandit after level 20 had either deadric or glass armor on), but the fact that it can be smithed ruins that.Why am I unable to craft some faction's armor, but crafting daedric is within my reach?
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Astargoth Rockin' Design
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:47 am

Check this out http://andoran.com/en/

its a mod ( like nehrim for oblivion) that adds a completely new world , the creators of the mod claim that although it uses skyrims engine it will not use its mechanics, they promised that it will have mechanics similar to morrowind might be worth looking forward , dont know when its out though
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Rebecca Dosch
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:05 am



in morrowind though their was the cuirass of the saviors hide and the boots of the apostle that had 266 armor ratings. the curaiss of the saviors hide was in some closet which made finding it very awesome, it was totally unexpected you dont get that same feeling in skyrim IMO

To get that cuirass you needed to levitate in some way, then pick a lock... Something my character definitely couldnt do because he used no magick, couldnt pick locks well and didnt want to steal. The boots of rhe apostle also definitely didnt fit non magic barbarian type characters either. There was just nothing good simply otherwise
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Laura Cartwright
 
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Post » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:32 am

Yeah, but they are all fixed items. And few are even as good as what you can craft, most are worse. Their location and method of acquisition never changes, there is no 'hunt' for them, no uncertainty, no interest. Same item, same place, same quest, every time through. Woohoo. Now that's entertainment.

But isn't that what people praise about Morrowind? The fact that there are "hand placed" "unique/rare" items in places that they can find (and then know in every subsequent play)?


------

Personally, I like looting in Beth games. But that's because I never get tired of the loot - not the generic magic items, not the generic items, not the clutter. Yeah, as the game goes on, my standards on what I pick up (based on weight/value) changes, but I still effectively grab everything that's not nailed down.

Among the reasons I didn't have many of the problems people have mentioned, in Skyrim:

1) To me, "unique" doesn't have to mean "all powerful". This is also why I really have a hard time understanding the "I wait on quests until I've ground my level to 30, so I can get The Best Versions" Oblivion players.... I really don't care that my Shield of Chorral might not be the best version, or might be replaced later by something else - it was still a "unique" reward, and it was still (depending on class, of course) a useful item for some range of levels.

Also, "unique" can be a unique power, a unique model, a unique skin..... those are all valid "uniqueness" for me. Just started a mage-ish character this week - treked over to Froki's Shack to pick up that unique Light Armor/mage enchanted circlet. Great piece of gear.

2) I used plenty of "found" loot in Skyrim. Yes, I used Smithing, but I didn't have Enchanting on my character. Which means that I couldn't make "better" gear than what I found. By level 48-56, I was still using basic enchanted Glass and Elven pieces of gear, because the enchantments on them were useful. My two weapons I was using were a found Daedric sword (1 sec Soul Trap, smithed to ~110 dmg) and Dawnbreaker (smithed to ~105 dmg).

3) Not completely obsessed with unique stuff, anyway. I still don't know where half the named items are in Oblivion or Fallout 3, and I've played them bunches of times. Yeah, it's a nice surprise to find something in a shadowed corner, but it's not something I've ever made a specific goal of.


So yeah.... I've enjoyed looting in Skyrim. Plenty of stuff to find, between mundane, magic, unique, and crafted items. Always a reason to delve into the next cave/mine/dungeon/keep to see what might be around that next corner or in that next chest.

:shrug:
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jenny goodwin
 
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