Why are so many supporting the Imperials, you ask?

It's because of Hadvar. They follow him into the Keep and when he asks them to go sign up with the Legion, they go sign up with the Legion.
I'm willing to bet that if this new fanbase had half the brains to work out the definition of 'optional' then they'd be picking Stormcloaks here.

I myself always side with the Stormcloaks. They are good people, they keep their nord tradition strong and thus keep the Anchor on the world.
This Anchor is also called Talos. Without him the Thalmor have won. Nirn is destroyed. And that precious Empire would have never even existed.
So who cares if *some* Stormcloak citizens and their leaders are racist. Dovahkiin can glue that up- either with knife, force or some smoooth talkin'.

Skyrim would be better under Dominion Rule, anyway. *flameshield on*
The world existed long before Talos - Removing him will not end it. But is "ending" it really such a bad idea? Kittens will stop dying.

And your ignorance of why so many support the Empire is painful.

You realize that the Thalmor were stopped, their army annialated and pushed out of Cyrodiil completely by the end of the Great War right? they were far from conquering the world.

The stormcloaks and ulfric are extremely racist, also a small rebellion force won't hold against the thalmor.

false, most people sign with the stormcloaks first,
1. it is the closest entrance therefore most people will choose that one
2.they were about to be beheaded by the imperials, that should be a good enough reason to choose the stormcloaks first.

Maybe because by their own standard being held up to them, they are racist against ALL Dragons and want the genocide of ALL Dragons and do not understand that they are supposedly playing a TRUE Dragonborn, themselves. Ulfric is no more racist than anybody else is against the Nords whose country they have come to. He is certainly less racist than most of the Dunmer in Morrowind, who wanted to "slit all 'outlanders' throats in their sleep" as they said. (though likewise, it was still just something to chuckle at IMHO if u have a sense of humor about the plot it belonged in) LOL And in Skyrim if u read books by Dunmer they say in the Grey Quarter that used to be called The Snow Quarter u will get a chuckle out of how they claim credit for taking over even Windhelm by that..and such by infiltration..so sure Ulfric (and some Nords) have reason to be wary sometimes..but neverthreless u will see even Dark Elves (including female ones) in high postions, and when i brought a dark elf follower with me when i went to join storm cloaks, Ulfric only asked why she would want to support them if she is not from here, and when answered with, 'Skyrim is my home now' He answers back happily 'Well that is good enough for me!' and accepts her totally and even shows trust just on a word only. So that is different from being racist, it is just being a little cautious for good reason, as living in an occupied country requires. If u read lots of in-game books u will hear stories from many different races and sides..so it is up to u who u believe at least in that regard as long as u don't just keep your mind shut to benefit the Empire only.

To me the Imperialists are possibly more racist in how they USE other races and nationalities, and the Thalmor are currently more racist than them all put together. But that is how the game creates more challenges to overcome. Perhaps it could be fairly said that like many places, (particularly places that are under occupation and infiltration and seeking freedom and self-rule) the Nord, Ulfric is Nationalist, but he is no more pure-racist than anywhere else. The other races show pride in themselves also, without that race-card being played on them, so i think it is just that those playing for the Imperials in the Civil War may be getting a lot more Imperialist propaganda infused in them, than those playing otherwise, so that they do not mind that they almost had their own heads chopped off whilst still an innocent bystander.

But, really there are two sides to every story and that's part of what makes the game interesting. This game is so well written IMHO or we would not even be so immersed that we have these wonderful debates on which side is right.

I don't know where people get that idea. The Dunmer have lived apart in Windhelm for 200 years, it's nothing new and likely their choice as much as necessity, despite what people in the New Gnisis Club say. Dunmer are proud and xenophobic themselves and look down on the Nords. Ulfric isn't doing anything but maintaining the status quo, although with the war it's likely that old resentments between men and Mer are being stirred up.

Stormcloak jarls have elven housecarls or stewards, Sorli the Builder (who takes over in Morthal if the Stormcloaks win) has an Argonian housecarl. Ulfric himself says at one point that Skyrim is home not only to Nords. Basically you're saying you're joined from a false assumption.

@ the OP, having read a lot of these topics I think some people who played past games are sympathetic with the imperials because they played imperials, others consider it a pragmatic choice as the best way to defeat the Dominion, and a lot of people get half-cocked ideas about the Stormcloaks being more racist than the imperials. Or they just don't like Ulfric and believe the negative press about him.

LOL@ people calling avideogame character a "racist" and actually getting upset about it! LMMFAO

Talos is the anchor for mortality in Nirn. That's at least what the Thalmor themselves believe, and why they're so anxious to weaken and then destroy him. Once he's gone, they believe the world can be unmade without any possibility for the cycle of creation to happen again.

Funnily enough this is not wholefully true. I've been around a few mates houses who have Skyrim and seen them play the tutorial.
And for one they all followed Hadvar for the single reason that they were doing so before, when escaping Alduin's fire-breathing wrath.
I then questioned them about this, to which they replied in more or less the same way: "why would I side against the people who have the keys to my cuffs?"

People I've heard of online whom played Skyrim, when questioned about which faction they sided with in the civil war answered like:
"the red-guy at the beginning's faction." Indicating Hadvar's faction- the Imperials. Which seems to me that Imperial popularity is more idiocy than actual like.

Did no one listen to some of the dialogue Ulfric had? He was without a doubt an honorable Nord who did NOT battle for glory but for what he truly thought what was best for his people. I will say that past Nords, he doesn't much care, but you can't doubt his actions. He's a Nord living in the country that is home of the Nords. Which race did you thiink he was going to support? I don't think he's racist so much as he is just fiercly (if blindedly) devoted to the Nord cause.

I just always got the impression the Empire was fueled more by coin than by devoted to a cause they felt was just.

Agreed. The protecting the civilians bit was always something that stuck with me. I admit I can understand the Stormcloaks scarpering in the situation, but the Empire let them go and concentrated on helping the villagers.


Agreed.


It's not a major thing for some, but I always put a bit of weight on the fact none of the Stormcloaks even said a word in mine or horse thief's defense. It was all "svcks yeah, still, die with honor. Head up"


Well there is a cost in trying to maintain a huge Empire with multiple cultures. They could have tried for some sort of cultural hegemony, but they didn't. Certain things were outlawed, sometimes they respected unappealing traditions etc.

Morrowind had its own gods, was permitted to continue with slavery and so forth till it all imploded. The Empire didn't interfere to much with the Twin Lamps however, preferring to let the Dunmer change in their own time (and as one of the main Twin Lamp leaders was the daughter of the Duke of Vvardenfell it seemed Morrowind was capable of progressing by itself).


And that is something the Empire is fully aware of and they go along with it anyway? Or is it something we, as consumers of the fictional setting, know as we have more information than the Empire?

And if the Empire defeats the Thalmor in the next war and rolls back the laws...


Or the Redguard eventually fought the Dominion to a stalemate after half a decade for fighting (half a decade after the war with the empire had ended) and then also signed a treaty brining the conflict to an end (one without the same negative consequence). They didn't exactly drive them out effortessly.

And it is a bit of an anticlimix to the whole plot arc if it goes "and suddenly everyone realised the Thalmor svck at war and they went and killed them all easily". Perhaps you are reading things wrong.


No, the Nords in general are divided about that. If Ulfric hadn't broken out a shout (which goes agaist the grey beard approach at all) he still could have easily beaten the young, inexperienced High King and there Empire wouldn't have had nearly as much traction in its objection.

Ulfric whipped out a pistol in a sword duel, people are naturally going to argue about the validity of the results.


Because they signed a treaty saying they would.

Talos is an Imperial god as well. The Empire built massive dragon statues all over the place. They weren't active in obressing worship - they payed lip service to what the treaty demanded of them and little more. With Ulfric's rebellion the Thalmor were given an opening to demand the Empire hold up their end of the treaty.

They certainly aren't doing it because they don't want to worship Talos and they don't want anyone else to. They aren't doing it because they like the Thalmor. They are doing it because it is a law based on a treaty signed by the Emperor which a lot of people in the Empire seem to think is a temporary measure until another war happens.

And independant Skyrim that does that might well be opposing them more, assuming that the Thalmor don't decide to attack and if they do the Nords can stop them. There seems to be some debate about this.

I'm sure none of use are actually getting upset over it, We are just playing a rpg and it's our character who would be mad over it.

I went pro-imperial for my first play through because the character I'm playing is based off one I play in Morrowind (actually a table top campaign, not computer); its an homage. I'd bet a lot of Morrowind and Oblivion fans do the same.

As for a rationale... well, who's to say just because Ulfric isn't an ass, that holds for all Nords? In my mind, my Argonian was "press ganged" by Nord Pirates, and that's how he ended up getting picked up "crossing the border". Its also entirely possible some of those in the crew WERE spys. The pirates had ties to the Storm Cloaks (smuggling weapons and acting as privateers, selectively raiding imperial merchants), so he's happy to kill as many as he can... which at this point, is a lot.

And what makes you think the Thalmor are actually right?

They're desperately grasping for straws, and will latch onto any half-baked theory that might give them a shot of regaining their lost unmortality.

Except, isn't that the entire reason the Altmer have created this conflict?

The Altmer believe Talos a threat, a dilution of the 'master' race.

Which, considering the Empire's obvious apathy... or worse... approval, makes the Stormcloaks even more relevant?

And the Empire utterly more 'racist' by proxy?

the guy at the start actually survived in my first play lol

He got hit by the arrow in the shoulder but kept soldiering on and made it out of the place! Didn't know that wasn't supposed to happen haha

Tidus I have to ask where your getting this imaginary idea that stopping the worship of Talos would unmake the world. It existed just fine for thousands of years before he was born. And I can recall a few people complaining that they were able to worship Talos in secret until Ulfric started making waves causing the Thalmor to pay more attention. The Elves are long-lived you do not win the waiting game against an Elves.

If your goal is to bring back the worship of the Empire the best bet is to keep the Empire united the second war will void the White-Gold Concordant anyway. Which its implied by a few people will be soon. And tactically letting the Thalmor spend who know knows much money trying to stamp out the worship of Talos could be a good idea. It takes a lot of money to do that kind of operation and they don't really gain anything in return from a military standpoint.

Offically the Empire honors the treaty to ban the worship of Talos, but I've yet to see evidence of them actively helping the Thalmor aside from letting the people into Imperial territory. I can recall openingly murdering Thalmor in Markarth, and getting a bounty for 40 gold. Murder is supposed to be a thousand the fact I only got 40 gold for killing him. The Empire only honors the treaty so far as to give them time to lick there wounds.
Ulfrics little rebellion only weakens the Empire and Skyrim against another war. If he simply waited a little longer the second great war would have ended the White-Gold treaty anway.

Wrong, your not High King until the moot votes you High King. Killing the previous HIgh King in a duel is meaningless save for the fact you just eliminated the competition for when a moot is called. The fact that half of Jarl's still support the Empire is proof. All this shows is that Ulfric knew if a moot was called he'd lose to Toryyig who was quite popular. So he simply eliminated the more popular competition.

The original Thalmor was dissolved along with the original Aldmer Dominion. They basically didn't exist during the third era. Centuries later a new group calling themselves the Thalmor ceased power by claiming credit for saving the Summerset Isles from the Oblivion Criss. As outlined in The Rising Threat series. They later murdered the rightful Kings and Queens of the summerset isles, and exiled, banished or killed anyone who questioned there claim of being saviors of Mer.



Because it was one Imperial giving that order. Another Imperial Hadvar is prefectly willing to let you go. If he was incharge of the executions he'd have untied you and it have been someone elses head on the block when the dragon attacked. Why should I support Ulric? He couldn't bother to say "I'm not associated with this individual, do not execute him without trial."

If I'm a Mer or beast race the is certainly no reason to support Ulfric as he cares a great deal for his fellow Nords but cares nothing for the problems of other people within his Jarl.

I support the Stormcloaks, but honestly, there are many valid reasons for supporting the Empire. It really comes down to a matter of opinion and the weight people put on certain issues. The biggest question is, do you want what is best for the Empire as a whole or what is best for Skyrim individually? If people have different answers to this question, they will support different sides (usually). How big an issue is dscrimination against beast races and elves? Is that an issue you're willing to compromise on? What is your view on imprisoning people for their religious beliefs? And so on. There are many issues that raise questions, and the answers people give to those questions determine what side they support. I have spent many hours debating Stormcloaks vs Imperials on these forums and in the end, that is what it comes down to.

Quite the mature reply there. Granted it flies in the face of reality and pretty much every reply in these kinds of threads (and would apply for Stormcloaks as well). Like say if you read this thread from the beginning you would see exactly how many replies of that nature? 0? But whatever, eh?

Unless of course your having a joke, in which case *gold claps*


How long ago was the treaty signed and the laws the Empire wasn't enforcing put into effect? Nirn hasn't been destroyed yet. Talos worship hasn't actually stopped either.

If the claims of members of the Empire are correct and they believe they will be fighting another war against the Thalmor in the not to distant future (which will likely see the law against Talos lifted) than unless the countdown on the End of the world will end before this happens then Nirn probably wont be destroyed. Giving the Thalmor actual victories before than however...


I did, and it never convinced me he wasn't a man with an eye on the throne. Good intentions - maybe, sure, but an ambitious man none the less. I also have unanswered questions in regards to his "honor" (and in my mind how he won his duel doesn't really fall under "honorable) and I wasn't convinced a Skyrim with Ulfric as High King was going to be a good Skyrim.

My question is: Why can't I challenge Ulfric to an honourable duel to take his Hold?

A fair question, but the opposite could be postulated as well.

The answer for me is :

It would destroy the Civil War quest.

No, you just get killed for it.

The empire is imperfect, and there are some xenophobic policies, but only because the individual countries have too much power as is, the Morrowind slave trade could only exist because it was profitable for the Telvanni, and the empire I could only imagine would not want to start a war with the powerful wizards in the Telvanni, the empire doesn't dismantle government systems in the states, there is still a Mane, the Great Houses, the Silvenar (was that his name? the figurehead of the bosmer who can feel everyone's thoughts) etc etc, so the practices are not of the empire, but can't be dismantled so as to maintain peace

whereas stormcloaks represent that power to break away, and all of the old practices coming back, including xenophobia

notice there wasn't rampant slavery in cyrodiil, nor copious racism, they even banned necromancy, very middle ground, vanilla ice cream and cherry pie (sweetroll) place for the most part

the only worry I have with the empire is