I was replying to Gorbad.

Anyone saying it was a reason of "balancing" is lying to themselves. It was obviously just cut out because of too much rushing.

I really honestly thought that after the horreur that was Oblivion we would be seeing an improvement with TES5.
That we would see more options, better quests, more lifelike NPC's etc.
All those things are worse than in Oblivion.

The more I play this game, the more dissapointed I get.
Once you get beyond the beautiful surface you find there is simply nothing beneath it.
The game is shallow, minimalist, repetitive and lacks options.

It doesnt have any meat on it, it is beautiful bones.

The removal of fun and utalitarian spells such as open lock and waterwalking is indicative of this.
Anything that is a little bit fun, anything that offers a little 'R' in the 'RPG', is just removed.

Gone are the plethora of apparel customisations, we are down to 6. Compare that to Daggerfall's 20+.
Gone is spellmaking, the flagship feature of TES, that what made it great in the first place.
Its all.. just gone, and Skyrim is a hollow and empty shell of a TES game.

Why cant I jump or fly up a mountain? Why do I have to boringly trek around the base of it looking for that one linear path?
Why cant I tell a questgiver to sod off or even kill him?
Why are there zero fun handplaced items to find? All the generic magic apparel and the handful of artifacts are unimpressive.

Biggest dissapointment of 2011.

They were on a roll.

But seriously, it svcks that magic is all generic and bland. All those different spell effects from previous elder scroll games were what made this magic system so unique and interesting to me. I think it boils down to what Thomas Kaira another poster said, "Don't want to fix it so axe it". Nothing else really makes sense.

Edit: misqouted

The effect is in the game, just that it is a greater power. It will take all of 10 minutes to make the spell if Bethesda or a modder wishes.

No, it was cut for Bethesda's idea of balance. We can go all day about how good or bad that decision is, but make no mistake, it isn't they can't, it is they wouldn't.

That still would make a whole skill pointless. There's nearly no point spending time and perks on lock-pick as it is, if alteration would have open spells.. It'd be completely pointless. Besides, with Skyrims magic system, you don't need to level up alteration at all to cast even a master spell. (as long as you can obtain it). There's no limitation of which spells you can cast, it's only about cost. Thus, a few enchantments that make spells cost less and a big pool of magicka and you can open any lock with 0 alteration skill.

Spells only show up at the vendor according to your magic skill levels, so there's that argument shot. Lockpicking is pointless in Skyrim anyway, unless you want to spend perk points in Lockpicking for some reason or another. If it bothers you so much, don't use unlock spells.

Nobody complained about this nonsense in Oblivion.

I miss that one too. The mini game gets very old very fast.

I don't belive that magic in Skyrim is as it is because it was rushed. They have deliberately stripped it. On purpose. A decison was made. Spells removed, and spellmaking removed. It is honestl;y one of the greatest disappointments of the game.

Its painfull seeing anyone trying to justify this as being in the name of "balance", when with smithing we can make swords which kill dragons in a couple of hits. Just call it what it is - Skyrim has less magic options than previous TES games, by design. From the noises Bethesda themselves have made, "spreadsheety" etc, a conclusion can be reached that this decision was taken to appeal to a broader market. We can see this in many aspects of the game - the UI = simpified and aimed at consoles.

Let's commit heresy by forgetting lore and previous games and all that, and just take a look at what would actually make sense. What would the Thieves' Guild actually be? A bunch of poor shmucks who lack magical powers, reduced to petty filching because anyone with a contract to steal something would go to a mage. Invisibilty, muffle, open lock spells, detect life. Why would anyone who couldn't do this even bother?
I fully appreciate you could extrapolate this, and ask why anyone who isn't a master of restoration would ever leave their house, because you could leave that to someone who might actually survive, but really, why even risk getting caught as a thief when a mage can pull it off so much more easily?

I was hoping there would be one at expert level, but whatever I guess. I will probably start lockpicking with my mage when she maxes out her magic.

The spell was added to console now. Click door, type unlock voila For the rest of you though, out of luck!

Because the Thieves' Guild is *trained* to do so. Yes, a mage can cast invisibility/muffle/whatever, but thieves are specially trained to be what they are. Every subtle movement, every quiet glide over the floor is something no untrained mage can hope to replicate. A mage can sneak in and steal your things, but only a true thief could sneak in, steal your things and leave in such a manner that looks there was no-one there in the first place.

Bethesda in their rush to dumb-down RPGs and make it accessible for everyone tend to forget several things...

1. It`s the journey that counts, not the destination...


and

2. ...spells are like the Mods of the rpgs world. Whther you are a Magician or a true warrior, there has always been a variety of spells to buy from Wizards who`ve had a go at making any spell. Some are useless some are great. point is someone somewhere might just be willing to try them out.

Previous rpgs had so many spells that i often never used any, but if in that rare case I needed a lock spell or levitation, I could go down the local spell shop and get one. They often did n`t last long or had other unexpected effects - Anyone remember the jump spell that killed you if you weren`t ready with a feather spell? Or the blinding speed spell that blinded you?

But they were there if you were prepared to try them.

Sorry wrong thread

Why would anyone want to be a mage when you can make invisibility potions, get a pair of muffle enchanted boots, open any lock at any level with a lockpick and use a shout to detect life? We don't even have to bring up the fact that you can get scrolls that also allow non mages to cast spells. I guess I just did though. What about a magical staff?

------

There are plenty of ways for non magical players to use magic. When a magical player wants to do something it is a big deal though. I honestly think most people only come here to argue and don't really care about the topic.

My post is referencing the rank and file of a Thieves' Guild in a world where all their skills can be made redundant by mages, not the actual player character. Shouts? Expensive magical items? Yes the player has access to all of these things, does your average cutpurse? "I want you to steal this necklace. It's worth the hefty sum of 300 gold. Here's a scroll that's worth 500 to help you out." Worth it to the player for a 'quest completed', not very sensible for the inhabitants of the virtual world.

We should have more options yes we are left with a shell, a hollow pretty shell that is Skyrim.
I did not think that more things could be cut from the Elder Scrolls after Oblivion, oh boy was I wrong.
I expected longer quest, better NPC interaction as well, I was also hoping for more diversity in how many different factions we could join.

Oh I agree that this is the most simplisteic ES there has ever been, its redeeming factor is the world and dungeons they both have great and unique feels to them, that is what has been keeping me playing its not the depth of the game that is for sure. I agree too what we have is a mundane poorly thought out and simplistic feature set.

We also need more pragmatic spells for roleplaying options as it better diversifies our spell users. The spell system is the most shallow magic system there is to date and now we cannot do anything with the system at all that adds roleplay value: its just another watered down feature now.

We have lost several features for customization, why do I have to wear huge parts of armor when I used to assemble my own. Why have we lost weapon types that allowed me to play a warrior as I want. Spell creation had almost limitless potential foe mages.

Why do we have to jump a certain height why do mages need to jump at all there used to be spells for that. The NPC characters are immortal and Morrowind did offer the choice for you to doom your world if I want to do that I should be able: the hand placed items made me feel like I accomplished something when I found the unique hand placed items. Now we have a generic item set and underwhelming rewards.

The series needs added mechanics and depth added to it most definitely.

No the lockpicking skill made lockpicking pointless. It is a skill that just opens locks, that is all it does. And there really aren't any locks that need to be opened in the game really. The existence of the open lock spell does nothing to change that. You have a skill that does one very narrow task that you don't even need to level or perk to get pretty much everything out of it. It kind of ended up pointless on its own. Now if Bethesda was not filled with incompetent game designers they would have made lockpicking a worthwhile skill on its own and the open lock spells would not have diminished that in the slightest. Things that it could have handled other than opening locks, finding traps, disarming traps, setting traps, bypassing puzzle doors or doors with a item requirement like the dragon claws etc. And guess what alteration would have covered very little of that.


His point was all magic was made redundant by mundane means, so what you are really showcasing is what should be the games strength the ability to handle the same situation in multiple ways. And on a world level magic can be handled entirely through the dispel effect which was in previous games. A constant effect dispel in strategic locations would reveal any mage but would do nothing to stop a trained thief, there really isn't a dispel mundane skill effect in the game world. Also until the silent casting perk a mage realistically would not have been that great of a thief since casting a spell was like shooting off a flare, so yeah you can open that door and turn invisible but you would have alerted everyone that you were trying to break into the house. And then things like detect life and dispel magic would have ruined your day. But I guess it is too much to hope for Bethesda to have a competent AI and have the game have in game resources to deal with the player instead of them just removing things left and right so they don't have to think about it.

Really, Lockpicking in Oblivion was basically how fast could I mash the X button or how long until I get the Skeleton Key. Skyrim at least makes Lockpicking a little bit more realistic.

Magic makes sound and light when you cast it. A mage burglar wouldn't be successful because his spells would make too much sound.

Also, an apprentice at lockpicking can open a master lock if he tries for long enough, while mages have to be a master of alteration in order to open a master lock. This fact alone naturally balances it and makes lockpicking a valuable tool, even if open spells exist.

Pretty much this +100

I like the lockpicking mechanic. I liked it in FO3 too (it`s basically the same). I hated it in Oblivion.

But what we`re talking about is simply having some unlock spells,

But meh, that`s how they wanted it, I guess.

The same that bound swords make real swords redundant? Or the same way that two handed swords make one handed swords redundant?... really?

Nothing redundant about it, it gives more option for role play.


Its already pointless, regardless of alteration or not, *who takes any perks in that tree anyways?* an unlock spell wouldn't change that. It would however make more sense RP wise. And thats the point, who gives a crap if lock-picking becomes obsolete if you are playing a character who wouldn't use lock-picking anyways svck as a pure warrior who would rather force a lock or a mage who would use magick. The only person affected is the single player playing it, and that is how he want it.

Only for alteration mages (e.g. people who up alteration perks and Magicka). Assuming the Magicka Cost was adjusted properly. That or people who make a special set of alteration armor and up the alteration skill a lot. Either way that's a lot more resources sinked into it than lockpicking requires and it wouldn't work for every character.