Jagar even if Ulfric does not care about Tamriel he realizes the threat the Thalmoor pose.I believe in lore the Nords and Redguard have excellent navies.I don't think they will invade Summerset but they will certainly conduct raids on it.

The Altmer are not all behind the Thalmoor there are some dissidents at least.A few sacked villages and towns may increase that number.

Some would argue that forced assimilation is not really freedom...

House Hlaalu wasn't forced into anything, they chose to accept the Imperial ways for financial gain. This is because the traditional Dunmer way isn't based on money, the Empire is simply more cosmopolitan. It isn't 'forced' change.

But he would run into the same problems the UK had in WW2, the Nords won't want their children killed for Ulfrics gain, so he would face a revolution of his own if he tried to expand the Nordic empire.


No forcing, unless you count economic factors which are not the empires fault.

I should probably mention here and now that this is getting heated, as both sides need to justify their gameplay choices. As I said before, I think either one could work out pretty well, if the reunified Empire makes an effort to either declare war on the Dominion or simply find proof that they've broken the terms of the Concordat, or if the Stormcloaks ally with the Empire and Redguards and lead them in a crusade against the Thalmor. LIkewise, either one could end very badly, if the Empire never makes a move against the Thalmor or the Stormcloaks are dumb enough to fight their way through Cyrodiil to get to the Thalmor.

Tharkin, the Nords and Redguards would get smashed by the Thalmor's navy. Even if the Dominion's forces are defeated on land, the real hard part is defeating Old Mary's navy.

It would have been awesome if the Nords and Imperials called the Dominion "Old Mary." I liked that term. SKYRIM IS RUINED FOREVER.

Sure, the same way colonies all over the world weren't technically "forced" to adopt customs, class system, political economy of their invaders, but did anyway.

It was forced yes but had they not accepted they would probably lost their Great Houses and their right to have slaves and so on. Then the empire would have came in built cities and changed the cities like Vivec, Balmora and Sadrith Mora into Imperial cities, and the Dunmer would probably have lost the Ghostfence. These are all things that could have happened so they retained more freedom they would have lost if they did not sign that document, it was the best thing for them at the time and in doing so they got the protection and resources of an empire.

Might does not make right and the ends don’t justify the means. The Imperials would have you believe that your freedoms will be returned as soon as the threat is dealt with and that sacrifices must be made for the “greater good.” A government that doesn’t protect its citizens does not deserve to rule; an emperor who sacrifices and condemns the people of his provinces to protect the people of his homeland is as corrupt as he is incompetent.

Because unless you are a Nord, the Cloaks basically want you out.

That is one way of seeing it, however if you look at peoples all over the world many argue it is best to simply fight your invaders, because this kind of appeasemant only leads to eventually full-on assimilation anyway. The Empire will always want more and more, and eventually, Morrowind etc. will look, act, think just like Cyrodil. Not saying this is my point of view per se..but I think it's worth considering in terms of the lore, and in fact there are characters in Morrowind who seem to lean this way.

Of course it is not totally black and white, but personally I (er my character) always side with self determination as fundamental right..so by default I have to support the stormcloaks.

I'll start by saying this isn't the real world, and that the British empire actually improved quality of life for some countries (at a great cost, as an Indigenous Australian I know)
But the economic factors which meant that House Hlaalu became more and more powerful weren't a conspiracy by the empire, the fact that the Dunmer way of life was incredibly tribal and archaic is just a fact. Their social order never evolved.
A religion and social structure can remain the same, but not if at the detriment of the countries economy (and indirectly the quality of life for its people), and if Hlaalu had not accepted the empire way the entirety of Morrowind would be bankrupt.
And to your point earlier about the empire pillaging Morrowinds resources, Redoran and Hlaalu own a lot of the mines and sell the ire for a profit, so the empire is trading not looting.

Assimilation would have been necessary with or without a treaty, or Morrowind wouldn't be able to support it's population.

Yes, empires often do improve living conditions, in many cases they even bring 'enlightened values' to people. However, again this completely misses the real question of self determination as a human right...I believe that peoples have the right to determine how they live, even if it means they will choose to live in a way that is deplorable to my own values. To me the right of peoples to self determination is more important than whether or not an Empire brings more money (almost unquestionably it does), and whether or not the people's in question end up adopting values I agree with.

You could justify ANY invasion with the claim that it bolsters standards of living etc..and in fact most invaders have, from ancient rome to the colonies, to plenty of current stuff (take a guess)..it's all about "civilizing the savages"...I consider it hypocrisy.

I do not believe they would try large scale battles.Raids on lightly defended targets would be enough.It would force the Thalmoor to reallocate assets to defend their home.Force them to react for a change.

Well yes eventually Morrowind was turned more Imperial, it lightly touches on it in The Infernal City and The Lord of Souls. It eventually happens like that, but there is less blood shed overall.

Also I see it from Morrowinds point of view, I have created a devout Morrowind faimily that worship Azura the Dunmers patron if you will, and in Morrowind one of those Dunmer in particular hated the Imperial occupation and treaty with the empire. He wanted Morrowind free, free from the empire who wanted Vvardenfells ebony mines, free to own slaves as its their ancient right, freedom of politics as he wanted the Great Houses to stand. My family I created hated the dark art of necromancy the act of profaning the dead, but it was their ancient right to have ancestral graves and to put their ancestors into the Ghostfence and their own personal Ghostfence.

I make a lot of character builds based off of several different views within the lore of the series.

Don't remember how well this was spelled out in the game, but if we go by real world anology there is NO WAY the empire wouldn't be taking the lions share of profit in the economic operation of it's subjects, if it didn't behave that way, it wouldn't be an empire.

Also when someone puts bases on your land and you don't want them there, that's conquering someone there may be different degrees...but let's call it what it is. The presence of military bases and troops in Morrowind obviously means more than just 'trading'.

Seeing as they allow them to worship the Tribunal and don't actively persecute them for traditional values (see the Ashlander tribes) they aren;t civilizing the savages, the Empire can't be held responsible some of the Dunmer choosing the new ways over the old.
The evidence just isn't there to paint the Imperials out as the Roman/British empire you want them to be.
The people ARE determening the way to live. Just because the empire is being chosen doesn't mean the empire is assimilating them.
If anything it is more racist not to let other races assimilate to your way of life.

House Hlaalu did have a huge investment in it, Redoran had a fair amount as well, the empire did profit greatly as well.

The Romans allowed most conquered people's to keep their religion because it benefitted them to do so, same with many other empires. An empire is first and foremost an economic arrangement. It works insidiously though once installed..Of course they are choosing the empire, there are troops all over the place and bases on their land, be it fear or stockholm syndrome, a certain percentage will go along. There were also plenty of characters that were distrustful of the empire. Anyway, people tend to assimilate when the guns/spears/halberds are pointed at them, or stationed nearby.

House Hlaalu was well known for changing according to the times that is why they lasted as long as they did and they grew accustomed to the new, while Indoril and Redoran fell because they could not let go of ancient tradition. House Telvenni lasted as long as it did because they was ruthless magisters and wizards and they could change some but they also had power.

Orvas Dren owning the mine isn't spelling it out well?, the mines being guarded by the Redoran/Hlaalu guards?

And anyhow, there is NO WAY the empire is making any profit from buying things, they aren't selling it to the other races for more or back to the Dunmer, and it isn't racist or evil for them to expect a profit from selling the manufactured armor to them.

I said I didn't remember!!

Why would the empire be there if they weren't making a profit? The point is that unless they were invited they have no right to involvement in the first place. Because it is someone elses land and culture, you can dress it up as all nice and friendly and "trade" related as much as you want, but the fact is that they have troops and bases all over Morrowind...the fact that there are indigenous elements that collude with the empire does not lend them legitimacy for anyone but apologists.

This is silly, your saying that even thought the empire did let them keep their culture, social order, beleifs and religion it all counts for nothing because the Romans also did this but only because it suited them???

And no, the Dunmer didn't assimilate because of the Empires power, they assimilated because of the Empire bringing a better way of life for them (In their view).
You can paint anything as evil if you imagine agendas that they must have.

Because they need the materials?
And signing a treaty = an invitation, sure the treaty was probably forced but the empire does respect it's terms and doesn't actively force it's culture and persecute the natives.

It's a shame you can't negotiate a permenant ceasefire, perhaps opening the way for them to be allies. Really, I think both would benefit from each other: the Stormcloaks from the added security and trade of the Empire, while the Imperial controlled side benefits from having somebody willing and able to murder the Thalmor breathing down their necks.

"need materials" in the same way that every other empire in history has "needed" to conquer people, well yeah I guess..if you see that as a need.

I'm saying that ALL empires allow a certain amount of independence in cultural affairs, and this means nothing to the actual relationship. If someone plops troops down, takes a % of your sh*t, and says "ok we're setting up shop, here's what you have to do or else"...your self determination is GONE, and that to me is the baseline of 'freedom'. Claiming freedom without self determination (regardless of trappings) is hollow. It may be security, it may even be prosperity of a kind, but it ain't really freedom.

Treaties are usually authored largely by the victors!

Because Stormcloak is nazi's with one hand around their genetalia and with a ruler who killed the high king "Cause he could do that.."