Didn't you know? Morrowind was perfect, so things didn't need to evolve after Morrowind.

I'm just tired of people not even trying to understand the obvious complaints that others have with the game. It seems that just because I don't kiss Bethesda's ass and love Skyrim to the point of it being the best thing ever created my opinions and complaints have no validity.

As I said, if you enjoy a game that doesn't make you go "Hmmmm" than so be it. It's one reason why we'll never get another decent RPG again because it seems that simplied "Dumb Down" games are what everyone wants now a days.

And with that, I'm finally done with this topic.

There. Right there. 'Skyrim is not a decent RPG and everyone who doesn't think so is kissing Bethesda's ass'. That is why people struggle with taking your complaints seriously.

Skyrim won an award... for its story? Seriously? While TES lore as a whole is deep and intriguing, Skyrim's characters were bland, its presentation was poor, and its plot was exceedingly simple. What a farce.

What "thinking" was there in Morrowind?

I can't comment on Daggerfall - never played it significantly.

But I did play Morrowind significantly. And I absolutely -love- it. Until Skyrim came out, Morrowind was my favorite game ever. Now, I think Skyrim has surpassed it.

So how is Morrowind a "thinking man's game" where Skyrim is a "simple, dumbed down mess"?

Attributes aren't complex. Classes in Skyrim actually require -more- thought. And the journal and "hand written directions" aren't complex enough to call Morrowind deep and Skyrim simple.

Morrowind's "classes" consisted of bunching 10 skills together, under the label of a class name, and leveling them from 1-100. If you didn't like the skills you picked, no problem, you can do your miscellaneous skills just as easily as you can your majors and minors, with no penalty what so ever, and max them all out just the same.

Skyrim's "classes" consist of using whatever skills you want, and each level, investing a perk point in your skills as you level them from 1-100. If you don't like the skills you're using, you -can- just begin using a new skill, but you can't unperk what you've already perked, thus potentially gimping your build if you perk in something you later find out doesn't fit your playstyle.

Skyrim's character building system force you into a specialization more than Morrowind ever did. Where as in Morrowind, every character heads down the road to the same path of being an uber god mastered in everything, Skyrim's leads you don't a path of uniqueness and specialization when your different perk points set you apart from other characters.

When it comes to character development, Skyrim requires -more- thinking than Morrowind, thus by definition, cannot be "dumbed down".

Also, everyone always refers back to D&D mechanics when defining an RPG... D&D isn't the only RPG. Just because D&D was the most famous table top RPG doesn't mean that anything different from D&D isn't an RPG.

Most sports games use numbers to define players and their skills. However, there -are- sports games out there that don't use numbers. It doesn't make them any less of a sports game. It's a different style of accomplishing the goal of making different players stand out.

Attributes are not the be all end all of character definition. TES has decided, at least for now, that they want perks and skills to define characters, and that doesn't make the game any less of an RPG.

I think it's rather lazy for people to compare Skyrim back to D&D, point out where it's different, and say it's not an RPG, when D&D isn't the only method of making an RPG. That is but -one way-.

Even looking back at Morrowind, a game that is nearly 10 years old at this point, and complaining that Skyrim does things differently than 10 years ago is a rather lazy way of condemning Skyrim. I know that my sports games, even sports games in the same series, don't work the way they did 10 years ago, and that doesn't make them any less of sports games. Games evolve, even within the frame of an individual series. Metal Gear Solid 4 on PS3 does not function the same way as Metal Gear on the NES... hell it doesn't even function the same way as Metal Gear Solid 2 or Metal Gear Solid 3 on the PS2. Final Fantasy games are different from installment to installment. Hell, Super Mario Bros. 2 is completely different than Super Mario Bros. That doesn't make it any less of a Super Mario Bros. game.

And Skyrim being different than Morrowind doesn't make Skyrim any less of an RPG, or an Elder Scrolls game.

Yea, this mentality needs to stop.

I love Skyrim so much because it -is- complex, because it's not just pick up and be mindless. There is plenty of depth to the game, and I'm sorry -you- don't think so, but insulting the rest of us who who is out of line.

Elder Scrolls has always been one of the more complex RPG's out there, which is why I love it so much, and Skyrim is no different, and in some areas is even more complex than previously.

Just because some spell effects were removed, and other areas were made a bit more accessible to get into doesn't mean it's not deep, or complex, or requires no thinking.

Not every thread has to devolve into a Skyrim vs every past TES installment debate.

People would do much better judging Skyrim by its own faults, as a game in and of itself.

Comparisons are good and all, but this thread is more about the stories in Skyrim. Morrowind's story was engrossing, sure why not. The Witcher? I didn't find much in either of the games that stood out past stereotypes to me, and Deus Ex was little more than a Matrix meets Bladerunner. While pretty cool, I don't know...

Portal 2's story was pretty neat, but it only had one.

Skyrim has dozens of narratives, loosely tied together... which other games last year did that?

The execution of these narratives ranged from the verse you read in the stall at a bar, all the way up to the time consuming Main Quest and Thieve's Guild which are arguably the best stories in Skyrim. I don't necessarily believe that time spent in a certain narrative means its a deep or engrossing story, but when a narrative is to short it certainly leaves one wanting more.

I'll believe that game companies 'buy' awards when a shred of evidence is given to support this, it seems very against their interests to do such a thing and surely some competitive organization would have pointed out lipservice out by now.

Morrowind or any other TES installments have very little, if any, place in this discussion. The awards were for 2011, so lets just try to keep it there people.

I agree, but I guess I end up rebutting people who keep making comparisons to Morrowind and slamming Skyrim.

In 2011, my opinion is that Skyrim has the best story. It's more exciting and easier to immerse in.

What would you prefer? Skyward Sword? Dissidia 012: Duodecim? Super Mario 3D Land?

Hey, if Arkham City had won I wouldn't have objected at all. I'm just arguing that Skyrim is certainly also a viable choice.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution, The Witcher 2, Uncharted 3...

I've heard, though don't know much, about Batman: AC's and Portal 2's story/writing potentially having some merit, as well. Listing random games you know no one's thinking of, with perhaps some towards Skyward Sword, is a null argument and you know it. Skyrim's story is average, at best, even for video games.

That's a joke i can't wait for ME3 then i can play an action RPG with a real story and characters you care about. Oh and KOA is a better RPG than Skyrim , not a better game but definatly a better RPG i can't put it down and i'm fairly hard to please.

I happen to think the writing is quite impressive. There are a lot of lines, references and personalities. Sure, there could have been much more voice-actors, but all-in-all, Beth did a darn good job. Especially with the sheer amount of lore that goes along with every TES incarnation. There is A LOT of stuff.

I really enjoy the side quests. Being able to involve yourself with a clan of hardened lupine warriors, then being welcomed as one, is pretty cool. Transforming into a werewolf isn't really something that is included in many gaming experiences. The lycanthrope skill tree that was shown by Howard in that Jam video looks interesting.

Stealthily making my way through a gigantic ship full of seamen (ha!) to dispatch the current emperor, all while floating along the river near Solitude, was a great experience. Taking out the highest official in the land on his own vessel is a worthwhile quest, at least in my logbook.

Though, the guild's quest-lines could have been much longer. But the radiant quests need their room too, although they can become a bit stale after not too long.

"Dumb down" is a term used for people who cant handle change, change is good, The elder scrolls are changeing so get use to it.

Agreed. The only change I might accept as a case of "dumbing down" might be the limited quest log. Not a serious problem, though.

I thought the story writing was very good, exceeded my expectations and was better than Oblivion. Can't say whether it deserved the award or not because I haven't played the other games, but congrats anyway to the writing team.

Isn't the Witcher 2 just some erotic dating sim?

Lol, Geralt has always been a ladys man.

Greybeards are handled very nicely. Some great storytelling there.
The rest of the MQ ranges from below average to above average.
Most sidequests are poor as Calcutta's beggars.

LOL

I have no idea about the game itself, but the inclusion of the six scene just seemed to be a gimmick to sell it to nineteen year olds.

On that department, better a womenizer - it befits the role - than a married couch potato - a farse.
Besides, from what I've seen, The Witcher 2 handles advlt matters very nicely.
I wont go nowhere near a wedding ring in Skyrim. I tremble at the thought of taking a peek a the narrative direction they've taken on that.

I think an award for the story should be the last thing they get. I can see an award for so many other things about this game, but story not being one of them.

There's more than a few standouts for me in the Side Quest department.

There's one with a lighthouse and some of those giant Falmer cockroaches, one tied into The Wolf Queen and well this would turn into one massive spoiler if I continued.

Out of the 25 or so, I would say that yes... unfortunately only 5 -10 of them are really interesting.

Guild's were a different type of monster, they had all had pretty interesting stories but some of them were pretty short.

The Main Quest certainly did have it's low points, but the ending (as a story damnit not the fight or mechanics) more than made up for it. There were many cameo's in Skyrim, from past TES's, and I rather enjoyed them every time I came across them.

Come to think of it... there are MANY cameo's in Skyrim.

...and marriage in SKyrim ? A concession to the Far Right? A clumsy attempt to lure males in their mid forties in?
From what I've seen, six is handled properly in The WItcher 2.

Can you say the same thing about marriage in Skyrim?