Your builds - perk choice wanted : V - Skyrim

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:24 am

I'm 90% sure ^this^ is correct...

...and ^this^ is not.

Oh cool! Frees up another perk if true :celebration:

Thanks for the info.

» Tue May 15, 2012 1:14 pm

Well, I made 2 points and you have talked about one of them. The first, that it is hard to get past 50, and the second, that you are achieving less due to game balance.

For the first, we have been told that skill gain is reverse exponential. You level fast at lower levels and slower higher up. I have seen footage of people at lower levels, but nothing high up, so all I can do is take the words of the devs when they say its a real hard grind. Which I think holds true to the idea of a soft cap anyway. It must be a significant difference going from 50 to 51 than 49 to 50 for it to be any kind of cap. But you seem to know(?) otherwise? Or are you simply basing this on your own logic/reasoning..? In which case I would like to hear it.

For the second point, if the game is balanced at level 50, it would generally mean your choices matter less afterwards, as the game is not getting any more difficult. Early on, and even up to level 50, the world will be noticeably progressing with you and so you need to keep up. This, imo, adds meaning to your choices. When the world no longer moves with you, there really is little point to branching out. All you will be doing is dealing with the same stuff but in a different way (which imo again, is better saved for another play through where its more distinct). I would rather see/think it is generally better to focus on builds that cope with the changing and advancing game world rather than those that plan to do this, then tack on a bunch of stuff after. I want to see what you are going to use to get to level 50, to move through the world. Not just all the perks you really really want.

Anyway, that is my reasons for wanting to see builds at or under the 49 limit. Each to their own of course!

I definitely cant argue with the second half, that's reasonable thought. It doesn't fit with my playstyle at all, therefore I suppose I kind of just glimpsed over it, but I admit it's a point to take into account. Also, knowing where you put your FIRST 49 points has some virtue of its own as priorization in a build matters just as much as the final state, so I can't fault your thread for that.

As for leveling, saying that difficulty above 50 is 'reverse exponential' is definitely a solid exaggeration. There are three things at play here and solely three: Within each individual skill, every point is slightly longer to grind than the previous one. Secondly, latter levels take a handful more skillups to achieve than lower levels, but this would be a "soft curve" effect rather than "exponential difficulty". And finally, there is a reasonable expectation from the devs that most players wont be striving to use every skill, especially those that conflict with their build (generally at least one weapon style and one armor type will be disregarded, but for many players certain other skills like pickpocketing may see little use, etc).

The sole mechanic that takes into account your overall level is the one that determines how many skillups you need to level; your level never ever affects the time it takes to get a skill up, only how far you've progressed into a given skill affects how hard it is to get the next point, and therefore the leveling pace varies a little but there is definitely no point where it becomes frustratingly slow. In fact, given that the base rate of progression is so stupefyingly fast, as long as you are willing to play like a jack of all trades switching between playstyles regularly instead of playing to your strengths, you WILL get to 75 if you plan to explore most of the game content in a single playthrough.

That's really all I can share on the topic for now because I obviously havent had the chance to time things. Also like I said, my perception of what constitutes "super fast" may be colored by the fact I used mods to slow down my progression in both Morrowind and Oblivion, but still. I just wanted to get this off my chest, because the level 50 mantra softcap is quite overblown.

Still, there's virtue in knowing what you'll be getting -first- so I dont think its a waste of an exercise to pick 49 perks only. Do carry on

» Tue May 15, 2012 10:49 am

Oh cool! Frees up another perk if true :celebration:

Thanks for the info.

Indeed. I don't have the game myself yet, but I think the Wiki has made a false assumption there, seeing as we've known about the Smithing perks for months now and nowhere has it been mentioned that they're ranked perks. Also, http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrim/comments/lzl70/skyrim_skill_trees/ has them set out as single-rank perks.

Seeing as I plan to take every perk (bar Glass) in the Smithing tree, I'd be screwed if they were all 2-ranked!

» Tue May 15, 2012 8:23 am

I see a lot of people here posting up to 49 perks.

You start the tutorial as a level 0 character, you know. The first time you level up you reach level 1.

» Tue May 15, 2012 10:51 am

I see a lot of people here posting up to 49 perks.

You start the tutorial as a level 0 character, you know. The first time you level up you reach level 1.

I actually did not know this. Thanks for that, that one extra perk could genuinely make quite a difference!

» Tue May 15, 2012 12:40 am

I see a lot of people here posting up to 49 perks.

You start the tutorial as a level 0 character, you know. The first time you level up you reach level 1.

I suspected/hoped for this but it had not been confirmed anywhere. Thanks for the info!

» Mon May 14, 2012 11:56 pm

HOLY [censored] HE'S RIGHT. ONE RANK. I CAN'T BELIEVE I DIDN'T NOTICE. THAT GIVES ME 2 MORE PERKS!

» Tue May 15, 2012 9:16 am

I see a lot of people here posting up to 49 perks.

You start the tutorial as a level 0 character, you know. The first time you level up you reach level 1.

Look at the first video released. It clearly says "Mike" is level 1 when he goes through the first door to the Helgen Keep.

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:07 pm

I definitely cant argue with the second half, that's reasonable thought. It doesn't fit with my playstyle at all, therefore I suppose I kind of just glimpsed over it, but I admit it's a point to take into account. Also, knowing where you put your FIRST 49 points has some virtue of its own as priorization in a build matters just as much as the final state, so I can't fault your thread for that.

As for leveling, saying that difficulty above 50 is 'reverse exponential' is definitely a solid exaggeration. There are three things at play here and solely three: Within each individual skill, every point is slightly longer to grind than the previous one. Secondly, latter levels take a handful more skillups to achieve than lower levels, but this would be a "soft curve" effect rather than "exponential difficulty". And finally, there is a reasonable expectation from the devs that most players wont be striving to use every skill, especially those that conflict with their build (generally at least one weapon style and one armor type will be disregarded, but for many players certain other skills like pickpocketing may see little use, etc).

I was meaning reverse exponential for the whole curve, not just after 50. But it might just be exponential? I'm getting a little confused I think. What I mean is the slope will be much steeper after the soft cap than before.

As far as I understand, you need an EXP of A, then B, then C etc, for each level, and each level has a higher EXP requirement. This may be a soft curve. But to gain EXP you need to level skills and I believe this is where it will get exponentially harder. Once enough skills are high enough to grant you enough EXP to hit level 50, I presume, while it may have been a soft curve before, it would become a much higher gradient. That is simply what I presume based on what the devs have said and what seems reasonable to me. I do not think the devs would say there is a soft cap based on what they presume people would use.

The sole mechanic that takes into account your overall level is the one that determines how many skillups you need to level; your level never ever affects the time it takes to get a skill up, only how far you've progressed into a given skill affects how hard it is to get the next point, and therefore the leveling pace varies a little but there is definitely no point where it becomes frustratingly slow. In fact, given that the base rate of progression is so stupefyingly fast, as long as you are willing to play like a jack of all trades switching between playstyles regularly instead of playing to your strengths, you WILL get to 75 if you plan to explore most of the game content in a single playthrough.

We do not really know how it will work. It might be that skills are harder to raise the higher number of total skill-ups you have (represented by a level) or that it is determined in contrast to the average skill level or whatever else. You are presuming here when you say there is no point when it becomes slow, since while if everything was set on a normal curve that would be true, it is possible the devs put in a mechanic to increase the difficulty because they want there to be a level cap for game balance reasons.

I have no doubt it is possible to get every skill to level 100. I am just saying, that based on what I have heard/read/seen it seems to be a waste of time when I could experiance the same thing in a different play-through where those skills and perks are more relevant. Also, if you truly want to experiance everything, then you WILL be doing other play-throughs to try the other races.

That's really all I can share on the topic for now because I obviously havent had the chance to time things. Also like I said, my perception of what constitutes "super fast" may be colored by the fact I used mods to slow down my progression in both Morrowind and Oblivion, but still. I just wanted to get this off my chest, because the level 50 mantra softcap is quite overblown.

Still, there's virtue in knowing what you'll be getting -first- so I dont think its a waste of an exercise to pick 49 perks only. Do carry on

Yea, fast and slow are subjective, so it is really hard to try and debate over this. I just think it will be more pronounced than what you say. Eh, it will not change the game any xD Back to the builds!

» Tue May 15, 2012 10:28 am

Look at the first video released. It clearly says "Mike" is level 1 when he goes through the first door to the Helgen Keep.

I saw an empty black bar with 1 on the right hand side when the bar was filling. Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall seeing other bits of footage with the current level on the left and a progress bar leading up to the next level on the right.

» Mon May 14, 2012 10:15 pm

I saw an empty black bar with 1 on the right hand side when the bar was filling. Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall seeing other bits of footage with the current level on the left and a progress bar leading up to the next level on the right.

That's definitely how the level bar works - the number on the right is the next level, the one you're working towards. Hopefully this means you're correct and we do start at level 0, I'm all for getting an extra perk

» Tue May 15, 2012 1:18 pm

I must be right then. (I always am :cool:

)

It just makes more sense that way, really.

» Mon May 14, 2012 10:27 pm

My Thief

Archery: Overdraw 5 Critical Shot 3 Hunter's Discipline 1 = 9

Sneak: Stealth 5 Backstab 1 Deadly Aim 1 = 7

Pickpocketing: Light Fingers 5 Night Thief 1 Poisoned 1 Extra Pockets 1 Cutpurse 1 = 9

Lockpicking: Novice Locks 1 Appentice Locks 1 Quick Hands 1 Adept Locks 1 Golden Touch 1 Treasure Hunter 1 Expert Locks 1 Master Locks 1 = 8

Alchemy: Alchemist 5 = 5

Speech: Entire skill tree = 13

Total = 51

Primarily focusing on the trade. For combat, tons of hiding and sneak attacks with bow =D

» Tue May 15, 2012 6:15 am

I must be right then. (I always am :cool:

)

It just makes more sense that way, really.

Cool, it that is true then there are 50 perks before the soft cap. It seems I have more than enough perks to make my build. Woot woot!

» Mon May 14, 2012 10:39 pm

Cool, it that is true then there are 50 perks before the soft cap. It seems I have more than enough perks to make my build. Woot woot!

Just looked at the E3 demo again and it appears I'm wrong. Todd's character is level 34. Progress bar when he levels one-handed while fighting the bandit says... 34. Oh well.

» Tue May 15, 2012 3:23 am

I thought I read somewhere that the first time you pick your stone (warrior, mage, thief) you got a perk point, equaling 50 @ Lv50. Anyway, if not and we are at 49 my build will be as thus:

Race: Nord
Type: Warrior
Perk Build

Heavy Armor - 12
Juggernaut - 5
Fists of Steel -1
Cushioned - 1
Conditioning - 1
Well Fitted - 1
Tower of Strength - 1
Matching Set - 1
Reflect Blows - 1

Block - 8
Shield Wall - 5
Deflect Arrows - 1
Riposte - 1
Elemental Protection - 1

One-Handed - 10
Armsman - 5
Bladesman - 3
Fighting Stance - 1
Savage Strike - 1

Archery - 13
Overdraw - 5
Eagle Eye - 1
Steady Hand - 2
Power Shot - 1
Quick Shot - 1
Critical Shot - 3

Sneak - 6/7
Stealth - 5
Deadly Aim - 1
Muffled Movement - 1 (Only if what I read was correct and you get 50 points at 50)

If I have the stones to make it to 70 I'll focus on all the Sneak perks except the dagger one and all the Speak perks (20 points all together). I am also very hopeful we will get extra perks from certain quest and task. Probably only as common as the free skill points you got in Oblivion.

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:06 am

Probably as significant as WHAT you'll be choosing is WHEN you'll be getting it. Since I don't know how the leveling will work with my play style, I can only assume I'll be maxing out one of the trees (I'll be putting arrows through everything early on) or I'll be increasing rather evenly and will be perked about evenly all the way through... I would imagine I'll be getting all of the ones I'm looking for the most (Sneak, Archery, One-hand) maxed early on, and I'll have to force myself into the other ones I'm interested in.

» Tue May 15, 2012 9:30 am

My build all depends on whether the 20% increase perks increase said parameter by 20% with every Rank, or if it decreases each time allowing a Max % Bonus of 50%.

I've heard both, and am Religiously hoping for the former, considering that the latter is rediculous cost wise.

» Tue May 15, 2012 12:17 am

My build all depends on whether the 20% increase perks increase said parameter by 20% with every Rank, or if it decreases each time allowing a Max % Bonus of 50%.

I've heard both, and am Religiously hoping for the former, considering that the latter is rediculous cost wise.

According to a Redditor who has the game:

"The very first perk of every tree is basically like a general boost to that field starting at 20%. You can put up to 5 points in it taking it to 50% or something like that.
Example: 1 point in A is 20% stealth increase, 2 points in it is 25% and so on."

That means 40% or 50% increase at rank 5, which doesn't seem worth 5 perks to me.

» Tue May 15, 2012 1:38 pm

Skyrim Frost Arch-Mage Skill Tree

Destruction

Novice-Master Destruction (5)
Augmented Frost (2)
Deep Freeze (1)
Dual Casting (1)
Impact (1)
Total: (10)
Running Total: (10)

Restoration

Novice-Master Restoration (5)
Dual Casting (1)
Respite (1)
Regeneration (1)
Necromage (1)
Recovery (2)
Avoid Death (1)
Total: (12)
Running Total: (22)

Alteration

Novice-Apprentice Alteration (2)
Dual Casting (1)
Mage Armor (3)
Total: (6)
Running Total (28)

Alchemy

Alchemist (5)
Physician (1)
Benefactor (1)
Total: (7)
Running Total (35)

Conjuration

Novice-Master Conjuration (5)
Dual Casting (1)
Necromancy (1)
Dark Souls (1)
Twin Souls (1)
Total: (9)
Running Total: (44)

Enchanting:

Enchanter (2)
Insightful Enchanter (1)
Corpus Enchanter (1)
Extra Effect (1)
Total: (5)
Running Total: (49)

Final Health: 250
Final Magicka: 450
Final Stamina: 100

» Tue May 15, 2012 1:02 am

According to a Redditor who has the game:

"The very first perk of every tree is basically like a general boost to that field starting at 20%. You can put up to 5 points in it taking it to 50% or something like that.
Example: 1 point in A is 20% stealth increase, 2 points in it is 25% and so on."

That means 40% or 50% increase at rank 5, which doesn't seem worth 5 perks to me.

Not worth it to me either. That's stupid. Maybe it'll get a patch change or something, like with some of the Fallout 3/ New Vegas Perks.

And I don't wanna hear HERP MOD IT OUT DERP from anybody FYI, I roll PS3.

» Tue May 15, 2012 1:53 pm

I see a lot of people here posting up to 49 perks.

You start the tutorial as a level 0 character, you know. The first time you level up you reach level 1.

Really? Now to decide whether I use that one point for a second rank of stealth, or alteration dual casting.

» Tue May 15, 2012 11:14 am

According to a Redditor who has the game:

"The very first perk of every tree is basically like a general boost to that field starting at 20%. You can put up to 5 points in it taking it to 50% or something like that.
Example: 1 point in A is 20% stealth increase, 2 points in it is 25% and so on."

That means 40% or 50% increase at rank 5, which doesn't seem worth 5 perks to me.

So, 1 perk up to 20, then 4 perks equalling out to an increase of 30? Ehhh... Might change my build based on that. Still, I guess 100% improvement vs no perks is rather a lot

Hmm, I guess this goes for everything (i.e. enchanting/alchemy etc)? Hah, lots of change

» Tue May 15, 2012 2:55 am

Conjuration
5 ranks to Master
Dual Casting

Destruction
5 ranks to Master
Dual Casting

Restoration
5 ranks to Master
Dual Casting

Alteration
5 ranks to Master
Dual Casting
Atronarch
Mage Armor
Stability

Illusion
5 ranks to Master
Dual Casting
Animage
Kindred Mage

35 Total

36 is my target level cap. I don't plan to get close to 50. If I get that far, I need a new character. I plan to use these 5 skills only. Anything past that will just be a bonus. I doubt I will accumulate very many of those.

» Mon May 14, 2012 10:31 pm

Name: Groshak Rageaxe
Gender: Male
Race: Orc
Class: Berserker
Perks (35/50):

One-handed (10):

-Armsman (5)
-Dual Flurry (2)
-Dual Savagery (1)
-Fighting Stance (1)
-Critical Charge (1)

Two-handed (9):

-Barbarian (5)
-Champion's Stance (1)
-Great Critical Charge (1)
-Sweep (1)
-Warmaster (1)

Light Armor (10/MAXED):

-Agile Defender (5)
-Custom Fit (1)
-Unhindered (1)
-Matching Set (1)
-Wind Walker (1)
-Deft Movement (1)

Smithing (6):

-Steel Smithing (1)
-Arcane Blacksmith (1)
-Elven Smithing (1)
-Advance Armors (1)
-Glass Smithing (1)
-Dragon Armor (1)

I haven't decided where I'm going to invest my final 15 points into perks. Though the perks above I'm about 90% sure I'll be getting. I was going to get block perks, but, you NEED a shield for practically all of them--and I don't plan to use a shield (dual-wielder/two-hander here). That kinda-sorta put a hamper on that.

I haven't yet planned out what my Mage/Necromancer or what my Rogue/Thief and/or Assassin characters build will be.