Regardless of which side you happen to fall on the "dumbing down of TES" argument (and I have no hard opinion on the subject either way) I'll remind everyone that this thread really isn't about the argument itself. It's about someone (the OP) wanting to shoot down a way in which the argument is being made, and I have a feeling that if the OP actually sat on the other side of the argument, then this thread wouldn't exist.

Most of the objections I have read in this post come from people who type the term in place of a valid argument so that they do not have to put in the mental effort to conceive a logical objection. I agree that several aspects of Skyrim should have been more complex. I am not sure how you reached your condescending conclusion to be quite honest.

That`s sad. Where did he get that people ruined their builds with Birth signs? I never ruined my build with birth signs. I read what the sign did and chose the best for me. I never ruined any build and if this was the case why not just make it so the Player is WARNED if he has a bad build? Why just lazily omit it.

Who the hell is Todd listening to?

Obviously not to people who can actually read.

The sad thing is bethesda`s apparent financial success can only mean he`ll listen to more people who want the `rpg` taken out of rpgs. He`s just copping out altogther, like they all do in the end.

Classic dumbing down or Idiot proofing... maybe our OP would prefer that term? Idiot proofing is apt but does seem more insulting than dumbing down.

I will say again, I am just encouraging a more effective and articulate manner of expressing the sentiment that the Elder Scrolls games are moving towards excessive simplification. And of course if I didn't agree with my post it wouldn't exist, if you didn't agree with your comment it wouldn't either.

It does seem more insulting, but it isn't calling anyone an idiot, its like the phrase "so easy a caveman can do it". The only people that would get offended are the cavemen. Since I don't think anybody will admit to being an idiot, I don't think anybody can formally be offended.

I think anyone that has played this series for any length of time has to admit that Bethesda has made each game more and more simplified with each new offering. I'm not saying Skyrim is a bad game. Its not. Its fun, engrossing and has been worth every penny I spent on it and its easily my favorite game of last year. But, whether the OP likes it or not, this game has been dumbed down to appeal to a mass audience. I don't blame Bethesda for doing this at all. The whole point of being in business is to make money. Which Skyrim has. But, Skyrim is nowhere near as complex/difficult as Morrowind was. Whether you want to call it dumbing the game down or simplifying it, the end result is the same.

I think any negetive cannotation against Skyrim would be met with Fire breath and Vitriol in all honesty, the Term Dumbing down is the "to the point" aspect of a more thought out gripes that are not placed because generally once you say something ill of Skyrim no one wants to hear -why- you think that. more often than not stamped with the "thats your opinion" seal and your arguments go unheard. no?

It is more insulting if you consider "idiot" a more offensive term than "dumb." What is your objection with having birth signs being on rocks that you seek out rather than immediately handed to you? It seems that if anything is "dumbing down," it is giving players these buffs instead of making them work for them.

People do bring up decent points against the current direction TES is taking. Erandur is one of the best i have seen who makes such arguments. MK-OmegaX is another.

Err, no. What I meant is that I scarcely believe you'd have a problem with the usage of "dumbing down" if you were one of those players who agreed that TES has, for the most part, become unnecessarily simplified.

Well, the game isn't "dumb", so not only is the term rude, arrogant, and insulting, but it's also incorrect.

Actually, I am presenting a somewhat exaggerated scenario to illustrate the point. To me the addition of quest markers, map markers and POI markers on the compass in Oblivion were pretty much the equivalent of the above scenario. It COMPLETELY destroyed the ability and enjoyment of exploration and it destroyed any self-rewarding feeling of actually finding the place on your own. At least in Skyrim, I was able to turn off the compass and markers before I played the game.

This particular 'addition' was done for two reasons.
1) The addition of voice content for every character, which prohibited lengthy directions given by NPCs. This was done because because so many people complained about having so much to READ in Morrowind.

2) Even with directions given by NPCs in Morrowind, many people STILL complained about getting lost or not being able to find anything.

Bethesdas response was to completely eliminate the possibility that SOME people might get confused, lost, or generally disgruntled with the game because of their inability to follow simple directions. Likely in many cases because they failed to actually read the text they were given and simply skipped it.

That is the most classic example I can think of for 'dumbing down'. The game mechanics were changed to cater to a group of people because reading for comprehension posed to much of a challenge.

Except that it is a needlessly insulting term that relies on emotional sensationalism instead of rationale thought process.

It implies that the people who do prefer the current methods are "dumbed", or inferior to those who prefer the previous methods.

I will not consider any opinion that includes the term "dumb down" (or any other equally insulting term) to have any validity.

This thread was not about "what has been dumbed down in skyrim"; providing circumstantial evidence of such is all over the forum from numerous threads, and I really doubt people are into repeating themselves every time they use the term, especially when it comes to detailed anolysis.

For the sake of brevity, Its most practical to just name the grievances. Demanding otherwise is just insolent.


Seeing how everyone is getting so bent out of shape over the word; "funadding" sounds awfully appropriate.

I know you are fully aware of what you consider the opposition is trying to convey, no need for Strawmen. the only response to a "dumbing down" term -is- and emptional one of you take offence to the tone of the poster and not the content of that persons post.

A choice with meaning and in most cases consequences, compared to a choice that isn't really a choice, more of an appetizer sampler for dabblers. Thats the difference.





Only if your admittedly dumb, can you be offended, are you admitting that? No, then you cant be offended. Its a slang term to convey simplification and 'idiot proofing'. Neither term is offensive to anyone other than Beth. And if they're offended, then good, maybe they'll change their direction, which I doubt.

Ohh please

Morrowind's directions equated to "its to the west of X and south of Y" but in reality it was "its 4 times west of X then it is south of Y" It's directions were unhelpful to non-existant.

Not quite.

Streamlining is more about keeping the same content, but making it more efficient.
For example: Rather than having to go through several menus to reach your quest-journal, and then having to flip through the pages to find the quest in question, you can streamline it to simply press a single key to enter the quest-journal, and have a complete list of the quest so you easily can select the one you want. That's streamlining.

Dumbing down is taking the quest-journal complete with detailed information about what you're supposed to do, how and why you're supposed to do it, and replace it with a simple "do this" and an arrow pointing in the correct direction.

What word would you prefer [censored]?

Sigh, Skyrim is filled with too many delectible appetizers , and lacking in the full course meals. akin to to sampling food that throws your tongue into a stupor, there is only so many times you can enjoy a sample, soon you've come to know what to expect, and going at that stand no longer entices you. I want to dive into you but I'll strike my cranium without my shoulders touching water

You don't take anything that anyone says on board. You defend Bethesda even to the point of absurdity, just for the sake of it.

There is no point even trying to reason with people like you. Any retort directed at people like you that is more than a couple of sentences is a waste of energy. Even though very little energy is used when operating a keyboard.

I'm still waiting for the argument that, however impressive it is, that Skyrim, and Oblivion for that matter couldn't be better if the build was geared toward a pc and not a console.

It's nothing new though, Gothic 4 got dumbed down badly and Piranha Bites let JoWood do it and they killed the RPG elements badly and made it more a hack and slash. I think Bethesda simplified Skyrim too much, that's why it's dumbed down.

Piranha Bites did a good job of Risen, looking forward to Risen 2.

The difference is that you can change them whenever you want now. In the past, if you picked a bad sign that was a you problem. Now, if you don't like the one you chose, all you have to do is fast travel to whichever rock you want and get a new one. And, in past games, astrology was an important element of the game world, now its been entirely ignored. Can you imagine the scene in Oblivion when the Emperor asked you your sign if Oblivion had used Skyim's system?

The Emperor: What rock did you pick?
COC: Umm, the Atronach?
The Emperor: Are you sure?
COC: Not really. Let me press this button and go back and make sure thats the one I want. After all, noone likes choices that actually have consequences. That may lose Bethesda a few extra thousand sales.

Exactly! That is the point. If you stop me on the sidewalk and ask me directions on how to get somewhere, that is about all the response you will get. It does however, offer you an generalized idea of its location as a place to start your OWN search.