Dumbing-down is what you're inevitably going to get with a studio that wants to sell a copy of it's game to every single person on the planet with a gaming platform, and that's what Bethesda has become. After 620 million in sales, you can bet their next game will be a whole lot "dumber."

If you're opposed to this, then you're going to have find a studio that's willing cater to a specific crowd (the RPGers who enjoy immense complexity, or moderate complexity, or any complexity at all) and are willing to forego widespread sales for the sake of targeting that specific crowd.

So...being on topic, its clear the use of the phrase "dumbing down" isn't going away anytime soon yes? and is a perfectly valid statement as lol, since who can type all the vocal varietions and tones on the forum to perfectly convey their pleasure?

Some directions were very accurate, while others were more vague, true.
However, for me personally, it was far more rewarding actually finding the spot myself. I also appreciated the world more, because I'd pay much more attention to the details, as I was looking for specific landmarks, instead of looking at the compass from time to time, and just move in that general direction.

For future games, I hope they use a combination of both options. Keep the compass in (but keep it toggle-able like in Skyrim), but also have NPC's provide proper directions, and give us a quest-journal that holds some actual information about the quest we're doing. That's satisfy most people, I'd wager?

Until you start getting warned for such words, yes, it's here to stay.

The word, "dumbed down," is in the dictionary, but I seldom see people using it correctly. It does not mean "streamlined" or "simplified."

Whats the devs take on this?

On a side not, if we sacrifice Nell2Thalzzay as a blood offering, can we have Spell Creation back, RedHamster?

Todd is far too busy counting money to care what a few nerds say on a forum.

The problem is spending 2 hours looking for a dungeon that only takes 5-10 minutes to complete isn't fun for the vast majority of people, all it does is delay people from actually playing the game.

Also I don't know how you give directions but most people give better directions then that.

I was talking about RedHamster, he left though.

you arre not apart of the nerds? honest question.

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And Erandur I think Rad does AI.....I THINK...

"Abolishing the Term "dumbing down"

Yes, I vote for this. I feel it is insulting to everyone. It is most often used to suggest that this is being done to TES so that it will appeal to new gamers...as if they were too stupid to play a game that wasn't "dumbed down." It's a somewhat arrogant point of view and doesn't make the person using the term superior in any way. Imho, it's also extremely inaccurate. I find the game very complicated, maybe even more so than Oblvion which was my favorite game of all time until Skyrim. So anyway, I vote it not be used.

They would? Why? It isn't features like skills, or attributes that take up disk space, its all those pretty meshes and graphics. A dual layer DVD is currently able to store 8gb of 'stuff'. Skyrim takes up what? A little more than five? Console harddrives are a lot bigger than they used to be, and I don't believe they copy much of the base game data to the harddrive in any event.

Storage space is not the reason for 'pretty' games, that have been gutted of RPG features. Beth 'alters' (dumbs down) the game to appeal to a wider audience, so they make more money. Plain and simple.

Actually, the term is perfect. They are making the game easier and simpler for dumber people who can't think for themselves, aka "dumbed down".

Purile Rubbish. You`re just trying to label something in such a way to seem as an insult to others. Making a mountain out of a molehill.

The term simply points out how something has been made simpler to the point of having less or no challenge.


For me, `Idiot proofing` has a far greater potential for insult.

How many times are going to have go on this merry-go-round with you people? Or does `merry-go-round` offend you too?


I hate to agree with you, but this encapsulates the truth of it.

It`s just about money and greed.

The end.

I've been a proud nerd since I discoverd D&D and comic books.

The problem isn't that they CAN'T do it as you so imply, it's that they don't find it fun.

Walking back to the Ashlander camps 10+ fing times in Morrowind was not fun. I usually just put something on top of my keyboard and left so I wouldn't have to sit through to boring ass landscape I've seen 10+ times already.

After we abolish this term, can we please work on getting rid of using all forms of the word immersion? That's the word that makes me stop reading, since it doesn't mean anything after watching grandma knit and seeing how immersed she was in that.

Except that what you fail to take into consideration is that the two overarching weapon types (one-handed, two-handed) also have specializations within them, so there are specializations in blades, blunt weapons, and axes, both with one and 2 handed versions of it, as well as specializations in daggers, and specializations in dual wielding. So Skyrim offers your blades, blunts, axes, daggers, and dual wielding, which is 5 melee combat types.

And putting perks into blade, axe, blunt, or dagger specialization is no "simpler" or "less complex" than selecting short blade, long blade, blunt, or axe as a major skill.

The things that were removed for Skyrim also had things to replace them.

-Armorer was removed, replaced with a more in depth and complex crafting system with Smithing
-Mysticism was not removed, but rather merged with Alteration and Conjuration
-Hand to Hand was removed as a skill, but is still in the game to use, including perks to further specialize in it
-Unarmored is still not in the game as a skill, but there are perks included in the game to allow specialization in it, which is a step up from Oblivion
-Athletics and Acrobatics were removed in Skyrim, but more fleshed out skills like Pickpocket and Enchanting saw their return to the series.
-While there are only 18 skills in Skyrim as opposed to 21 in Oblivion, each skill has multiple fields of specialization that allow for deeper character customization than Oblivion or Morrowind did. I.E.: Master Conjurers can be Necromancy specialists, Atronach Conjurer specialists, Bound Weapon specialists, Master Destruction mages can specialize in specific elements, One-Handed fighters can specialize in blade, blunt, axe, or dual wielding, and so on and so forth.
-Spellmaking was removed, but the casting gameplay mechanics were enhanced to allow for new spell casting types that weren't possible in previous games, and the ability to equip multiple spells to mix and match effects.
-Attributes were removed, but perks allow for all of the same in game effects as Attributes did (the only thing missing is speed)
-Dungeons and quests now have puzzles to solve, and there is an element of choice that hasn't been there previously

^ And that essentially is my problem with the entire "dumbed down" argument - people who use that term are throwing it around because they don't prefer the newer methods, but they fail to realize that things haven't gotten simpler than before. If anything, they got more complex. They simply look at 18 skills vs. 21 skill (or 28) and fail to examine that skills have gotten more in depth. They simply look at the fact that Attributes are gone, and fail to see that all the same effects that Attributes provided in previous games are still there in perks. They may not prefer the newer methods, and that's cool, but to toss around the term "dumbed down" is incredibly insulting.

It's even more insulting when I've been a massive fan of Morrowind since it's release 10 years ago, and the claims being made about Morrowind and just how "intelligent" it is are flat out false. Morrowind had map markers, they just didn't have on screen quest markers. Instead, you had to keep opening your journal and map to get your bearings. It accomplished the exact same end goal, one method just removes the tedium of constantly going into your menus. Dialogue was no more complex or in depth with text than it is with spoken dialogue. NPC's constantly had the same rehashed dialogue as every other NPC in the town, and unique quest dialogue is no more in depth than Skyrim's. Skyrim has plenty of in depth quest dialogue and directions and instructions, people just don't realize it because it's not jotted down into a journal. But there was plenty of "let me mark that on your map" quests for you in Morrowind that gave you bright yellow blocks on your map telling you where to go.

I really don't care if you prefer Morrowind's methods of doing things or Skyrim's. Frankly, I don't care if you absolutely despise Skyrim and think it's the worst thing ever or not. But the term "dumbed down" is an incredibly rude, and insulting way of going about expressing your displeasure, because it's not only negative towards the game, but it's negative towards the people who like it as well. Using terms like "dumbed down" is not constructive criticism, it's relying on emotional sensationalism to express your point. If you can't express your point without using rude and insulting terms, then you don't deserve to have your opinion taken seriously, and I will lend it no validity. As far as I'm concerned, people who use the term "dumbed down", or similar terms, are no better than common forum trolls. Express your point in less insulting terms, and I will be more than happy to listen to your complaints.

Intentionally using obfuscating terms to deflect negative connotations is the cancer that is killing the english language

This, this, 1000 times this.

Agreed that peeps are making a mountain out of a molehill specks of dirt, how do you take offence to the opinion of someone elses view towards the game? thats like getting angry because someone says Skyrim is the Best game ever made to be honest.

Morrowind DID have fast travel ya know.

When i use the term i assume you are smart enough to fill in the rest of the argument. Do i need to tell you how limited my controls are on the pc every time? Or how the puzzle's can be figured out by my 3 year old?
So if i put in skyrim has been dumbed down from previous versions, either you know what i am talking about now or you need to do some more reading...oops listen to someone on youtube as that is no longer a option.


lol sorry,but i have always had a problem with english and it is my native and only language i know,i could never make since of it,but i can speed read like the devil and i am a mechanical genious. Because i get tongue tied and have a southern accent they assumed i was lacking intelligence. Grammer police have alway's gotten my goat.

Errr, maybe it's just me but I often see very well-put explanations of why people think certain modern games or successors in a series are watered-down (just for you, OP) versions of their ancestors. You're making a pretty strange and vague statement about something which isn't really a problem. People expressing their disappointment with the direction of their forms of entertainment is much less an issue than that of those forms of entertainment becoming homogenized.