Abolishing the Term "dumbing down" : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:22 am

So in the future, when the series has devolved to the point where instead of directions or compass markers there is simply a big red button next to a quest in your journal that when pushed will simply teleport your character to the next step in the quest....

What term would you use then to describe the games development direction?

Dumbing down is a very appropriate term for the games in general. Removing functional features because they are simply "too complex" for the target audience is summed up quite nicely with "dumbed down". If you appreciate that particular develoment move, then don't be offended by it. It is what it is.

What term would I use?

"Bad". "Not preferable". "I don't like this".

"Dumbed down" is insulting, plain and simple.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:35 am

Morrowind DID have fast travel ya know.

not to the ashlander camps.

I remember the walk from Maar Gan to the Urishklu ashlander camp. The most god awful part of the game to have to repeat 10 times

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:26 pm

What term would I use?

"Bad". "Not preferable". "I don't like this".

"Dumbed down" is insulting, plain and simple.

The truth is often harsh.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:39 am

not to the ashlander camps.

I remember the walk from Maar Gan to the Urishklu ashlander camp. The most god awful part of the game to have to repeat 10 times

yes it did it's called mark and recall. and if you did not want to use the magic form you could by scrolls that did the same.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:32 pm

-Mysticism was not removed, but rather merged with Alteration and Conjuration

So, it was removed.

-Hand to Hand was removed as a skill, but is still in the game to use, including perks to further specialize in it

It's perks reside in a skill tree that have nothing to do with it

-Unarmored is still not in the game as a skill, but there are perks included in the game to allow specialization in it, which is a step up from Oblivion

Same as above.

-Athletics and Acrobatics were removed in Skyrim

And in doing so, made every character physically the same.

but more fleshed out skills like Pickpocket and Enchanting saw their return to the series.

About time.

-Spellmaking was removed, but the casting gameplay mechanics were enhanced to allow for new spell casting types that weren't possible in previous games, and the ability to equip multiple spells to mix and match effects.

Spellmaking also granted these abilities, and to a much greater extent.

-Attributes were removed, but perks allow for all of the same in game effects as Attributes did (the only thing missing is speed)

Perks do not alter your base stats. Their absence makes everyone physically and mentally the same.

-Dungeons and quests now have puzzles to solve, and there is an element of choice that hasn't been there previously

Puzzles that would not trouble a child. Don't make me laugh.

As for the rest of that gibberish. I'm lost for words.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:45 pm

yes it did it's called mark and recall. and if you did not want to use the magic form you could by scrolls that did the same.

Unfortunately you could have only 1 mark and recall, and the times required to go to said camp were spread out throughout the game.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:22 am

Games nowadays tend to be made with less complexity to accomidate the fewer controls that are available on console systems, and to maintain accessability to a wider age group. ( edit: The object of game making after all, is to make buckets of money. So appealing to a wider demographic makes good business sense. ) By way of comparision to games of yesterday that resided soley on PC's targeted to a more narrow (and older) age group, you now have games that have been made less complex and more simplistic. Hence, the game is Dumbed down. Arguagly to the lowest common denominator. The pimply faced kids playinig on an xbox or PS3.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:58 am

I really don't care if you prefer Morrowind's methods of doing things or Skyrim's. Frankly, I don't care if you absolutely despise Skyrim and think it's the worst thing ever or not. But the term "dumbed down" is an incredibly rude, and insulting way of going about expressing your displeasure, because it's not only negative towards the game, but it's negative towards the people who like it as well. Using terms like "dumbed down" is not constructive criticism, it's relying on emotional sensationalism to express your point. If you can't express your point without using rude and insulting terms, then you don't deserve to have your opinion taken seriously, and I will lend it no validity. As far as I'm concerned, people who use the term "dumbed down", or similar terms, are no better than common forum trolls. Express your point in less insulting terms, and I will be more than happy to listen to your complaints.

Wow, are you ever overreacting. Noting that a product has been simplified and then referring to it as being "dumbed down" is NOT an attack on the customer base of said product. At worst, it's an argument that the product has been deliberately reduced to a state where the least intelligent of people (not everyone) can operate it. That is not a blanket insult directed at everyone using the thing. Nor is it a condemnation of customers who are peerfectly fine with such changes (or an implication that they must therefore be "dumb" as well). You want to paint it that way because it suits you to do so, but why stop there? May as well write a strongly-worded letter to the publishers of the "The Idiot's Guide to...." series or the publishers of "..... for Dummies." for their insensitivity and thoughtlessness.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:27 am

Games nowadays tend to be made with less complexity to accomidate the fewer controls that are available on console systems, and to maintain accessability to a wider age group. ( edit: The object of game making after all, is to make buckets of money. So appealing to a wider demographic makes good business sense. ) By way of comparision to games of yesterday that resided soley on PC's targeted to a more narrow (and older) age group, you now have games that have been made less complex and more simplistic. Hence, the game is Dumbed down. Arguagly to the lowest common denominator. The pimply faced kids playinig on an xbox or PS3.

and yet morrowind played the same on the xbox...how strange.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:23 am

Im speaking on very broad terms of games in general. The phraise, "Dumbed down" appears accross all genere of games, not just the elder scroll series

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:00 am

and yet morrowind played the same on the xbox...how strange.

Yes the dice roll mechanics that made player skill irrelevant were SO MUCH MORE FUN on the Xbox....... /sarcasm

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:11 pm

Unfortunately you could have only 1 mark and recall, and the times required to go to said camp were spread out throughout the game.

you also had the striders and mages guilds and the alimari(spelled wrong) scrolls.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:58 am

Whats the devs take on this?

On a side not, if we sacrifice Nell2Thalzzay as a blood offering, can we have Spell Creation back, RedHamster?

Typical message board elitist behavior, let's just avoid the actual argument and attack those that disagree with us.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:18 pm

not to the ashlander camps.

I remember the walk from Maar Gan to the Urishklu ashlander camp. The most god awful part of the game to have to repeat 10 times

I enjoyed it.

Not in a laughing way, but in an exploration hardened traveller in a hard world way. I guess that`s why i remeber places like that still where i forget other rpgs.

Sometimes, something has to be tiring, difficult or annoying to be memorable, even like just walking to and from a location because you don`t have the money to pay for it.

However, I was glad when I discovered mark and recall, but still often walked everywhere.

the differnece with Morrowind to all the others (Oblivion, FO3, Skyrim) is that everything had a LOGICAL means; you PAID for a silt strider, you PAID for a boat or cart and you PAID or stole a mark and Recall.

I hate the FTs in later games because you just whizz there with no reason at all how or why. It`s like standing in the shopping mall and just thinking `home` and instantly your home - illogical crap.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:46 am

Agreed that peeps are making a mountain out of a ~~molehill~~ specks of dirt, how do you take offence to the opinion of someone elses view towards the game? thats like getting angry because someone says Skyrim is the Best game ever made to be honest.

Because the statement isn't "we don't like this game, we think X game did it better", the statement is "this game is dumbed down, and meant to appeal to the masses who don't want to think" which comes with implications - that the people who do enjoy the game are "dumber", of lesser intelligence, and just generally inferior.

It is an insulting term.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:21 pm

Typical message board elitist behavior, let's just avoid the actual argument and attack those that disagree with us.

Obvious joke was obvious. What argument, you haven't even quoted me have you?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:11 am

you also had the striders and mages guilds and the alimari(spelled wrong) scrolls.

None of those lead anywhere near the ashlander camps or for the most part 70% of the map because 70% of the maps was nowhere near a town of any sort.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:16 am

Typical message board elitist behavior, let's just avoid the actual argument and attack those that disagree with us.

board elitist? wut?

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:39 pm

Yes the dice roll mechanics that made player skill irrelevant were SO MUCH MORE FUN on the Xbox....... /sarcasm

yeah you really need skill to play skyrim :rofl:

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:25 am

I'll stop calling games dumbed down when they start dumbing them up again.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:10 am

yeah you really need skill to play skyrim :rofl:

Never said you did, or implied it.

I find it funny you literally pulled something completely out of your ass in an attempt to insult me.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:21 am

What term would I use?

"Bad". "Not preferable". "I don't like this".

"Dumbed down" is insulting, plain and simple.

I prefer "stripped" myself. Since Bethesda seem so intent on removing things from the game without giving back anything worthwhile to replace it.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:54 pm

I prefer "stripped" myself. Since Bethesda seem so intent on removing things from the game without giving back anything worthwhile to replace it.

Except 90% of the things they removed did have some replacement.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:09 pm

It's sometimes the most accurate way to describe what happens between elder scrolls titles to certain features. If that's not clear to you, you haven't been around long enough.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:10 pm

None of those lead anywhere near the ashlander camps or for the most part 70% of the map because 70% of the maps was nowhere near a town of any sort.

thats why you leave the mark at the aslander camp and use the other methods to move around..oh and you could fortfiy jump and use slow fall to treverse the map.