Actually, I think those were refugees. They made room for them.

^^^ Yah... They gave them the walled off, run-down(well most run-down area since the entire city is in terrible shape) section of the city. Also they aren't allowed to live in any other area of the city even if they can afford it.

Here is where we are going to have to agree to disagree.

According to your logic that -other races do not understand or respect honor and glory" which is not only false but a clear racist remark, this one sentence has condemed you.

Other races do understand and Respect honor and glory it's just they don't need to become glorified alchoholics that have a bone to pick with everyone to prove it.

Nords don't believe in rebuilding and as such many of their buildings are either in ruins or look like crap because they can't even repair the shingles. In other words they say it's their religion not to rebuild when in reality it's a way of saying "Fighting is for champions, building is for sissys and the dishonorable!" And because they don't rebuild or repair their houses/buildings/fort they end up complaining how easily these buildings are destroyed in the event of a natural disaster and they immediatly abandoned their traditional home and go look for an un-tainted land to build something new and leave their trash behind.

Now someone mentioned here that the Stormcloaks and most nords are racist and they shouldn't be unless it's the elves because the elves deserve it for what they did -thousands of years ago-. Now if we look at it, it clearly states that Nords hold a grudge a big never ending grudge.

Now what's that, the term many males say about females? That Females -REMEMBER- and -CONTINUOUSLY HOLD A GRUDGE-? If we were to apply that term here then that means all Nords even the males are essentially female. And how are females treated even on here by many forum posters? Weak and shouldn't be speaking.

So in essense when applying this "logic" found on the forum that means Nords, and Stormcloaks "Being all that a True Nord is supposed to be" are essentially "Grudge carrying weak females that shouldn't be speaking and should stick to the kitchen" But since most nords are warriors that means if they stay in the kitchen all their food will be burnt and disgusting which is probably why many Nords import their food from Cyrodil.

Now in another view point. The Snow elves which we now know as falmer, had initially welcomed the first batch of proto-Nords from their native home of Atmora ((which is the true native land of the Nords, NOT SKYRIM)). The elves helped the Nords learn how to survive in what would eventually become Skyrim's harsh climate and brutal winters. The Elves helped them build and taught them how to farm.

It's the equivelent of a family taking in a runaway teen and helping that teen get on their feet.

Now the relationship was a good one at first until the land began flooding with nords, what began as a trickle of water turned into a massive flood of Nord immigrants who sailed to this land of Atmora. The elves felt threatened as they were much smaller in racial percentage than the massive surge of Nords.

Now think of it back to that family who helped the runaway teen. The runaway teen now turns into an entire highschool of alchohol-driven partiers who flood that house, take over, start eating all the food, breaking everything and feeling entired to a house that isn't theres.

Realisticly you, as those home owners ((which many of you are kids and don't know anything about this concept yet)) Would begin kicking out those teens by force, essentially bringing a gun and start scareing them off.

That's what the Snow Elves did. It wasn't because of the Eye of Magnus that has been there longer than the Nords that the elves wanted for themselves, it was because the elves felt threatened by a massive surge of a race that was much larger than theirs in % and at the time ((and in cases still today)) a great big parasite of the land. Now don't get me wrong they probably shouldn't of killed everyone there but it was quite possibly the few trouble makers of the elven species.

Rather than punish the few trouble makers of the Nord species, the Nords pretyt much Ysgramor and his 2 sons gathered all their alchoholic bellowing buddies and retalated as they felt their race can do no wrong and began an elf-killing spree of even the innocent elves who were sympathetic to the Nord cause. Even after essentially killing off 90% of them and winning, the Nords continued to hold that grudge to this day and added other races to that mix. In between "War times" the grudge calmed down just a little bit to allow basic communication and tolerance. But it shoots right back up when another War starts, even if it's started by them, in this case the Stormcloaks.

Had Ulfric not whined and moaned like a cowardly baby about not being able to worship Talos and just worshipped him in secret, the Thalmor wouldn't of pushed so hard to find everyone that worshipped Talos in secret, kidnap and tortue them before killing them. Ulfric however hid for many months after starting this war which killed of thousands of people not just nords and split families apart.

The Stormcloaks are the worst the NOrds have to offer, even other Nords are sick of this bullcrap. Free-winter in windhelm, the guy who becomes the jarl of the imperial side once you kill Ulfric, doesn't agree with these ways and even wants to rebuild.

But I pity you if you continue to hide behind a logic-force field.

i stopped after first sentence WRONG

The Dunmer live in slums because they are refugees. They are treated better than most medieval refugees, different race or not.


He's not talking about the race.

You stopped reading after he said "This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree"?

I don't understand how you can try to defend you're argument without even reading anyone elses opinion of the situation. How about instead of saying "WRONG", you explain to us in an intelligent manor why you think we are indeed "WRONG". You're basically proving our point on how the Stormcloaks are infact racist when you don't use any scenarios to back up your statement.

Thank you Xurts, but I'm a -she- not a he.

Ah, my apologies. Difficult to tell in forums.

The Stormcloaks are freedom fighters. The are just missunderstood.

Sigh. Yet another one of these threads. Why do I get the feeling you never played Morrowind? Because it doesn't seem as though you've ever experienced Dumner prejudice in a TES game. Or witnessed the extreme racial bigotry and slavery in Oblivion at places like Bravil in Cyrodil. Or been the object of Thalmor Justicar racism when traveling the roads in Skyrim as a Nord. Just for the record---THE DUNMER ENSLAVED THE ARGONIANS & KHAJIITS (in Morrowind and Oblivion). In addition to mistrusting themselves, all elven races in general either distrust/dislike the human races (like the Dunmer) or flat out hate them (like the Altmer and their super facist Thalmor inquisition). Why??? Because there is a reason for this.

So to the Stormcloak facists and pro Imperial liberalists: this topic = a rotting horse. It also helps if you read the books with TES lore scattered all across Skyrim. NORDS AREN'T RACIST. There is a specific reason why they behave this way.

WHY NORDS HATE ELVES AKA WHY THE THALMOR HATES ALL HUMANS AKA TES HISTORY 101:

In a nutshell, 3 of the human races (Nords, Imperials, Bretons) decended from the Nedic people who originated in Atmora that was north of Skyrim. The Redguards were decendants of the Yokudans, a continent west of Tamriel. All of the elven races (Altmer, Dunmer, Snow elves, Ayleid, Dwemer, Chimer, Bosmer, Orc) descended from the Aldmer to the south at Tamriel. A civil war occured on Atmora, in which a Nedic chieftan called Ysgramor took many followers and emigrated south---to the northernmost tip of Tamriel (aka Skyrim). This band of Nedic immigrants lived in peace with the Snow Elves, the indigeous Aldmeric elves native to Skyrim in N. Tamriel. But the Snow Elves gradually became alarmed at the rate the Nedic humans were reproducing. They became threatened by man's existence to Elvish civilization on Tamriel.

So one night the Snow Elves attempted to eliminate the Nedic people in an unproved attack of genocide called the Night of Tears. They systematically hunted down and exterminated all the Nedics in Skyrim. The only 3 Nedics who survived to escape the massacre were Ysgramor and his 2 sons. They fled back to Atmora where they gathered 500 companions and returned to Skyrim. In the final battle, Ysgramor and the Companions killed the Snow Elf King. The remaining Snow Elves were scattered, with most being driven underground in Skyrim.

Ysgramor's victory established the race of man's permanent and successful colonialization all across Tamriel. The Nedic people who settled in High Rock became known as the Bretons. The Nedics who remained in Skyrim became known as the Nords. The Nedics who settled Cyrodil became known as the Imperials. And the Yokudans who settled Hammerfell became the Redguards.

The Elves betrayal and Ysgramor's victory was what created the permanent racial hatred between man and elves. More specifically, this hatred continues today for certain Nedic descendants such as the Nords, who were the slowest to integrate culturally with all Elven (and animal) races after Skyrim became part of the Empire. So because of this history, the Nedic descendants that are most resistant to cultural and racial integration have been the Nords. Similarly, the most resistant of the Elven race have been the Altmer, followed by the Dunmer.

The Fall of the Snow Prince chronicles the full horror story of how the Snow Elves were enslaved and transformed into the Falmer by their Dwemer cousins. So ironically, the Dwemer's treachery is really aka poetic justice for the Night of Tears. More info about this tragedy comes from completing a certain faction quest line. Ysgramor and the 500 companions story can be found in many books lying around Jorrvastar in Whiterun. [/end of TES history lesson]

So because of Tamriel's spotted history, no single group--be it man or Elf--can be labeled as racist/facist etc. They've all royally screwed up from a moral perspective---at least according to TES canon. For example, in Morrowind, petty religeous bickering elapsed between between two main Elven factions--the Chimer led by Nerevar, and the Dwemer led by Dumac. So Murphy's Law dictated that for their treachery against humans, the vanquished Snow Elves should become Falmer and virtually extinct. For pissing off a Daedric Prince, the Chimer were transformed into Dunmer in Morrowind. And for their enslavement of thier Snow Elven brethern and meddlesome logic, the Dwemer completely dissappeared from TES existence altogether.....

Fast forward several eras to 4E and the Empire's Great War with the Aldermeri Dominion (aka the Altmer and Bosmer unionin). Shortly after the Oblivion crisis ended in Cyrodil, the Argonians drove the last of their former Dunmer slave masters out of the Black Marsh. In Elswer, the Khajiit sided with the Thalmor and rebelled against the Imperial oppression. In Vardenfell, the Dunmer slave masters were trying to cope with issues of the blight and rebellions of their former Argonians and Khajiit slaves. In Hammerfell, the Redguard's martial culture had always managed to rub all the other 3 human races the wrong way; ever since their ancestors immigrated to Tamriel. But after forcing Hammerfell to become a part of the Empire, the Imperials basically abandoned the Redguards in the Great War. When the Empire lost to the Aldmeri Dominion, it offered the Dominion a large chunk of Hammerfell as a peace offering to the Aldmeri Domininon. This basically left the Redguards royally pissed at the entire Empire once they finally kicked the Aldmeri Dominion out of Hammerfell. In Skyrim, some of the Nords chose to continue kissing the Empire's butt in honoring the White-Gold Concordat. A peace treaty that basically denied them of their right to self determination--like Talos worship. Other Nords however took offense to this denial of their sovereignity as a people. Their leader Ulfric Stormcloak, got out of his bed one day, and then decided to shout the High King of Skyrim to death. The outcome of what transpires next is left to history...

The bottom line is the Aldermi Dominion---aka The Thalmor aka the remnant of the Aldermi Elves--want to finish what the Snow Elves began eras ago. They want the complete extermination of all human races across Tamriel. On the other end of the spectrum are the humans, which are further sub-divided into Nord Stormcloaks v all Non Nords. Just like their Nedic ancestors, the Stormcloaks want complete autonomy to govern themselves as they see fit--free from Elven control. With all the religeous and political infighting, both groups are now hell bent on anhilating each other from Tamriel for good. So just like Oblivion, there really isn't any black and white in this sector of the TES universe--only shades of gray.

The next time you start a potential flame war thread like this with racial name calling, at least try to back up your inflammatory rhetoric with actual TES rationale and fact.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atmora

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nede

Like any race, some Nords are racist some arent, dont tar them all wit the same brush.

Amen Brother ^^

So? People have always been racist.

That's a basic instinct actually.

It's Nirn. A whole different world, a whole different realm. I doubt that the concept "racism" is even known there. And remember, it's only in our modern western society that we've developed a sense of ethical humanity which tells us that racism is wrong. For a long, LONG time, we humans have been racist, and it was normal because we're naturally afraid of the unknown.

Ethics? Racism? Such Earth-terms does not exist in my Nirn!

Unless they changed it in the forum "upgrade", all you need to do is type [spoiler.] before the desired section, and [/spoiler] after on these forums. Well, without the period in the first bracket.

On topic: the Stormcloaks are racist because they asked why an Imperial would join.

No, it is not. Not in the least. At all. Ever.

The concept of 'Race' is born out of a drive during the scientific revolution and the Elnightenment to categorise everything. This, created with the urge to directly oppose the perspective of the Church led to the divisions of 5 main 'Racial' groups with ascending superiorities. The surperiority was because, at the time, the Church taught that all men (humans) were equal under god, even if some were uncivilized and in need of saving.

Prior to this, there was a pervading idea that, the further you get from home, the more different people look. That was the full extent of the concept of 'race'.

The simple fact of the mater is, Race does not exist. All the characteristics associated with the social contruct of races are attributeable to family lines. This in turn is derived from a long period with limited geneflow and next to no addmixture between localised populations. Even then, when you compare 2 individuals gene frequencies can vary by as much as 80%, while compiling statistical averages for a population and comparing it to another have yet to yeild differances of more than 12%. In order to be a scientificly defined 'Race' the differance must be at least 40% between populations.

Furthermore, the so called 'instinctual distrust' supported by sociobiologists is not present when you look at individuals with no social bias. That is, infants. An infant does not care who holds it, so long as it is secure and being fed. As they react purely on instinct and without a social basis for interaction, they are the best representation of what is natural and instinctual. You have to teach kids not to trust strangers, it doesn't generally come naturally.

Of course, this is all pertaining to the real world, and the TES universe tends to be a very, very different place.

On my first character i completed the stormcloak storyline and on my last three characters i've done the imperial one, because stormcloaks are super racist have you ever been to windhelm? have you talked to random people in the streets, ulfric stormcloak only cares about himself, no one else than himself. he used the voice to murder the high king. he was supposed to walk the way of the voice but when war broke out it was to temptating for him to go out and murder everyone with his voice, ulfric is bloodthirsty and does not see that he need's the empires help to deal with the aldmeri dominion.

im sorry to disapoint you but your information is a little bit incorrect the orcs were created bby the deadric god malacath they are elves but they have no relationship with them.
the breton are both human and elf

I want skyrim to be about skyrimish. Bloody thelmor ray guns comin over here, takin our jobs, shaggin our women

You speak like a true Nord

I mean, in terms of intellegence

Your on slipery ground here... and the word you were looking for was not "Glory" it was "Genocide"......

As a technicality, no, Glory was the right word. For what they were TRYING to acheive. What they acheived was atempted genocide. The whole lesson of Nazii-sm is really an example of how even good goals can be corrupted by their means. The goal of a perfect society is an admirable one, but the way they chose to create it was anything but.

The Stormcloaks are true patriots involved in a war of liberation.

What right does the empire have to deny them the right of self-determination?