When I first got the game, I was gung-ho for the Stormcloaks. I've always made Nords since Morrowind, and here were the "sons and daughters of Skyrim" fighting Imperial tyranny and religious oppression. I signed up with Ulfric immediately(even before doing the main quest).

But about half-way through, it became apparent to me that the Stormcloaks were short-sighted, ignorant, old-fashioned hypocrites who couldn't see a train coming if they were laying on the tracks. Ulfric uses the Nords tribalistic tradions against them and manipulates his way to becoming high king. Ulfric wants the throne. That's it. He's willing to cripple and weaken his own people, isolating Skyrim from any allies in the Empire, bascially handing Skyrim to the Thalmor on a plate, all so he can play King. Ulfric is a child.

I grudgingly finished the Stormcloaks storyline, and felt dirty and betrayed at the end. I've finished the Imperial side 3 times since, gladly chopping off Ulfric's head given the chance. Probably going to do it a few more times with new characters.

People say the Empire is just letting the Thalmor murder people, but most Imperials disagree with what the Thalmor do. Besides, dividing Skyrim is no way to defeat the Thalmor.

How much the Thalmor are actualy capable to infiltrate and cripple the Empire can be questioned. In the Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak(http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Thalmor_Dossier:_Ulfric_Stormcloak) they Thalmor specificly mention that their possition in Skyrim will be weakened of the Empire wins.
It also says the Thalmor doesn't want a Stormcloak victory, so I cannot see how some people argue that one side is right and the other will fail. This situation is far to nuanced to be able to tell.
Possible ways things can play out that I can currently think off:

• Independent Skyrim allies with Hammerfell.
  
• Independent Skyrim temporarily allies with the Empire when the Thalmor conflict resurface.
  
• Empire without Skyrim defeats the Thalmor, but is left so weak it disolves.
  
• Empire without Skyrim defeats the Thalmor, is left very weak and a warlord or something starts to rebuild it making a fouth Empire.
  
• Empire without Skyrim is defeated by the Thalmor, but the Thalmor turns out to defeat itself trough atrition.
  
• Empire with Skyrim defeats the Thalmor and start to rebuild itself.
  
• Empire with Skyrim defeats the Thalmor, but disolves
  
• Empire with Skyrim is defeated by the Thalmor, but the Thalmor looses through atrition.

I'm sure there are other options, but those are the ones I can think of right now.

No he is just a power mad tosser.

So is Bhelen Auducan in DA:O, but he is clearly the better choice. Being powerhungry doesn't make one a bad leader.

"most" nords are not prejudice. they love their country and want to rule it themselves how they'd like.

the empire not only doesn't have the nords interests at the top of their list they have subjugated and belittled themselves to the actual evildoers.

i'm going to make an imperial loyalist soon (DiD lol) and it will be tough to support the weak and timid empire.

Skyrim was my first elderscroll game, (ive just started Oblivion), and right from the start i was with the Stormcloaks, mostly cus the imperrials wanted to chop my head off. However playing the game as a Woodelf, a Bosmer i belive, i felt hurt by Ulfric and the Stormcloaks treatment of the non-nord races, at this point in the game i had chosen sides and was no longer able to go with the empire. So i waited untill night and then saved outside Ulfrics bedroom, then i went in and closed the door, and then gave the man the beating of his life for about 10 min, ofcus he cant die at this point but during those 10 min Ulfric was down kissing the floor severel times and i was left feeling sooo much better.

Because he can't get a fair moot. If he could have, the outcome of his duel with Torygg would have been accepted and a moot would then have convened. The empire's interference means the Nords' old traditions can't be carried out- including the moot.

So after Ulfric won his duel, the empire could have let Skyrim secede, as they allowed Elsweyr, Black Marsh and Hammerfell to leave.

It doesn't matter what they say about the Thalmor if they never do anything about it. It's been thirty years- just when are they going to get around to it? When it doesn't matter anymore because Talos has been so weakened he can't protect humanity?

exactly, celan.

a legit moot following a legit challenge would have been a clear ulfric inauguration.

the degradation of skyrim due to the "empire's" cowardice is proven.

game on.

all in all I think the only thing that is stopping the elves from running down the empire entirely is that they simply lack the numbers to keep any kind of occuping force.

they can beat them in battle sure, but can they secure every corner of Tamril??!!

although I have no idea how much force the elves actually have I would imagine its way less that humans/argonians/kahjit even in term of actual population.

ALSO it is good that Beth. kept the sides neutral-isk cause i did join the storm cloaks on some characters

I still hate the empire, but I can't see a future for a "free" skyrim when the dominion are looking for weakness's to exploit....

and besides skyrim DID found the empire in the first place

Exactly. But in the end, both sides need to realise their common enemy, and that is the Mudcrabs Thalmor.
I was for the Empire first, but after playing through the Imperials quest line and The Dark Brotherhood, i swiftly changed my mind. The other guilds painted a picture for both sides aswell, but mostly a picture about the Empire.

The Empire i once loved is no more, the Septim line is dead and the Empire is a corrupted shadow of it's former self.

I don't condone the banning of Talos, I don't think anyone does. Even Imperials say they didn't realize the impact it would have in Skyrim.

to not realize the impact of banning talos is not only unforgivable as a nord, but, ridiculous as a so-called ruler.

it proves ineptitude.

The Thalmor are using the Empire and Ulfric as their tools. Since the Thalmor are currently weakend, they are playing it a different way... By using the Empire to cause unrest with the Nords by banning their traditions, so that the Nords retaliate and it causes a civil war, this war then rips apart Skyrim saving the Thalmor from needing to use their forces, and waiting for the right moment to come in and sweep up the remaining few.

Both sides are neither good nor evil, and both are just as racist as each other.

If you cant win a war with brawn, you must then use your brain.

So glad I got the books of Skyrim on my iPod. Have you read the bear of markarth? It paints a more vivid picture of the kind of man Ulfric is, even when confronted with other humans.

Hell he even executed nords in markarth if they didn't fight for him when he breached the gates, despite their surrender.

"Every official who worked for the Forsworn was put to the sword, even after they had surrendered. Native women were tortured to give up names of Forsworn fighters who had fled the city or were in the hills of the Reach. Anyone who lived in the city, Forsworn and Nord alike, were executed if they had not fought with Ulfric and his men when they breached the gates. "You are with us, or you are against Skyrim" was the message on Ulfric's lips as he ordered the deaths of shopkeepers, farmers, the elderly, and any child old enough to lift a sword that had failed in the call to fight with him."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:The_Bear_of_Markarth

surrender after betrayal gets nothing.

I can't get myself to make my chars join the Imperials. I hate Ulfric, and Talos can go svck my dike, but somehow, I don't feel comfortable with the Empire. Stormcloak by heart I guess.

Did you read the title page, i.e. who wrote it? Also note the final paragraph, which is a "tell" as to what the author's goal is. Hint: It's to lick the Thalmor's boots over the fact that the imperials (Igmund's family, to be specific) got caught trying to barter religious freedom for a militia's help in retaking the city they lost. They had to have a scapegoat, and Ulfric and his men were it.

It's also a pack of lies, as it's a blatant propaganda piece that conveniently omits the fact that Ulfric was thrown under the bus by the very same Imperials that asked him to kick the Forsworn out in the first place.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that some of the pro-Imperial folks have never done the Stormcloak side of the Civil War nor have ever actually listened to certain dialogues, because the picture of Ulfric they're describing is not the way he actually is. That said, he does need to tamp down his ego when it comes time to recruit allies against the Thalmor, as his usual sales pitch isn't going to work on non-Nords.

I never like nor join either side. Usually. They all have what I want. Gold and blood. And I aim to take it from them.

You forgot to include attribution -
by Arrianus Arius, Imperial Scholar

^This. There is another book in the game about the Markarth incident, one that isnt shrouded by opinion and bootlicking.
Ulfric was used by the Empire, another reason i chose Ulfrics side.

What's it called?

I think it may have been but i am not certain. There is a book though. It may have been in one of the books talking about the Dwemer too, but i forget =/ rawr. All i know is i laughed a little after reading the one the imperial wrote... Anything to paint a picture.