Anyone else's opinions on the rebellion completely change at : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:57 pm

When i first started playing skyrim i was leaning towards the stormcloaks but after learning a few things about Ulfric i changed my mind. Because..... Ulfric only cares about one thing and thats Ulfric. He only wants to be king and is just using the outrage over the WGC to put himself there.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:44 pm

When i first started playing skyrim i was leaning towards the stormcloaks but after learning a few things about Ulfric i changed my mind. Because..... Ulfric only cares about one thing and thats Ulfric. He only wants to be king and is just using the outrage over the WGC to put himself there.

Pure propaganda. Listen to how he talks to his 2nd in command to get the real picture.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:02 am

Pure propaganda. Listen to how he talks to his 2nd in command to get the real picture.

I hear you but I have a hard time overlooking Ulfric's desire to be high king without undergoing the moot.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:49 pm

Initially, I sympathised with the Stormcloaks' goals (self-determination and religious freedom), and whilst not actually supporting them, could see myself roleplaying a character who did. That changed when I actually met Ulfric Stormcloak in the Palace of the Kings and learned the background of the civil war. Ulfric is a barbaric, monstrous, thug-headed dolt, who murdered Torygg and tried to justify it because he was better than him in a fight (using the Thu'um of course, not actually fighting him conventionally which would have given Torygg a chance). He had previously, according to one book in game, mercilessly massacred the Forsworn for fighting for their right to rule themselves. So we can add hypocrisy to his list of vices if that book is to be believed.

On top of that, he is stupid. Basic foresight would tell you that killing the High King would start a civil war in Skyrim, thus weakening the cause of men, all of whom essentially oppose the Thalmor, who are the real villains. The best chance for Skyrim to gain Talos worship again is for the Empire to stay strong and united, and overcome the Dominion in war and acquire better peace terms. Skyrim on its own could not stand against the Dominion, and if Skyrim seceded from the Empire the Thalmor would soon seize their chance, pick off Cyrodiil and the other provinces, and enforce even worse terms on Skyrim, if not even lead a campaign of all-out extermination on humans. Ulfric's prideful arrogance causes him to look no further than the shaft of his axe, and that makes him a worse leader than Torygg by far.

So, even though the Empire is corrupt, weak, spineless, and of dubious moral leadership, a shadow of Uriel Septim VII's Empire, it is still the lesser of two evils. When Tullius orders your execution at the beginning of the game, he does so out of realpolitik - why risk letting go someone who may be in league with rebels, despite their protests? He does not do it out of genuine bloodthirsty intent, unlike Ulfric did with Torygg (as he tells you himself) and with the Forsworn (if the in-game book is to be believed). The Empire, for all its flaws, is basically benign. So down with Ulfric, the killer of kings. On the day of your death we will drink and we'll sing! Long live the Empire!

Oh, by the way, I still sympathise with the Stormcloaks themselves, but since a Stormcloak victory would lead to Ulfric being High King, it is not worth it.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:11 pm

I hear you but I have a hard time overlooking Ulfric's desire to be high king without undergoing the moot.

Spoiler

That isnt true. At the end he says he will wait on the moot. The fact that he knows they will certainly pick him does not make your claim valid.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:27 pm

Pure propaganda. Listen to how he talks to his 2nd in command to get the real picture.

Oh i have and he comes off as a man who will do anything to get what he wants. If all he wanted was for skyrim to be independent he would have ask/demanded High King Torygg to declare indepenence which he very well might have done if give the chance as Elisif states but he instead murdered/dueled him to death (and imo it wasnt a fair duel considering he used the power of the voice).

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:09 pm

I was dead set aswell on the stormcloacks, on my next playtrought thought I plan to side with the empire

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:33 pm

@svann

Spoiler

I don't know what you are talking about. Ulfric demanded Balgruuf's alliegence before he submitted himself to the moot, then conquored Balgruuf, again before submitting himself to the moot. And at the time, Ulfric did not seem at all confident about the outcome. Ulfric should have submitted himself to the moot before conquoring Balgruuf if he wanted his claim to be high king to be legitimate. Had Ulfric been elected high king at the moot before he started conquoring his fellow jarls, he would have been a legitimate high king and could then have led a united Skyrim against the empire. Instead, Ulfric decided to wage civil war against his fellow jarls like Balgruuf to eliminate those who opposed him.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:18 pm

I've always been a diehard Imperial, and Skyrim did nothing but reinforce my mentality that the Empire has been and remains the best force for cultural and economic unison in Tamriel and the only real hope for a tolerant, open continent-wide peace. I always saw the rebellion as a foolhardy enterprise against the justified and worthy existence of the Empire, and the game only solidified that image of Ulfric's petty band of would-be usurpers.

The fool peasants who swoon at the chance of playing braveheart endanger us all in the face of the Thalmor threat. This I say to them; if they think of the Empire as the Thalmor's budding allies, little them know of current Tamrielic events. Bide their time whilst diplomacy runs its course, and when the Great War resurfaces as it inevitably must, then they shall see the Empire's stance against those militaristic zealots.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:12 pm

Oh i have and he comes off as a man who will do anything to get what he wants.

Spoiler

Galmar: Balgruuf won't give us a straight answer.
Ulfric: He's a true Nord. He'll come around.
Galmar: Don't be so sure of that. We've intercepted couriers from Solitude. The Empire's putting a great deal of pressure on Whiterun.
Ulfric: And what would you have me do?
Galmar: If he's not with us, he's against us.
Ulfric: He knows that. They all know that.
Galmar: How long are you going to wait?
Ulfric: You think I need to send Balgruuf a stronger message.
Galmar: If by message you mean shoving a sword through his gullet.
Ulfric: Taking his city and leaving him in disgrace would make a more powerful statement, dont you think?
Galmar: So we're ready to start this war in earnest then?
Ulfric: Soon.
Galmar: I still say you should take them all out like you did Deadking Torygg.
Ulfric: Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies.
Galmar: We're ready when you are.
Ulfric: Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not...
Galmar: The people are behind you.
Ulfric: Many I fear still need convincing.
Galmar: Then let them die with their false kings.
Ulfric: We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts.
Galmar: What's left of Skyrim to wager?
Ulfric: They have families to think of.
Galmar: How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families.
Ulfric: Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?
Galmar: I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that.
Ulfric: Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?
Galmar: I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?
Ulfric: I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight...because I must.
Galmar: Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day when words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed.
Ulfric: I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn.
Galmar: Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:06 am

where was his concern when he started the rebellion didnt even try for indepence peacefully just went and murdered the high king

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:50 pm

where was his concern when he started the rebellion didnt even try for indepence peacefully just went and murdered the high king

The high king was a puppet. He wasnt about to go against the imperials, much less the thalmor. And the other Jarls and even balgruuf took chests of gold as reward for going along with the WGC. Puppets.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:32 pm

The high king was a puppet. He wasnt about to go against the imperials, much less the thalmor. And the other Jarls and even balgruuf took chests of gold as reward for going along with the WGC. Puppets.

If you talk to Elisif she makes very clear that High King Torygg had a great deal of respect for Ulfric and would have probably declared indepence for Ulfric had asked him. Also last time i checked the moot decides who is king of skyrim not the empire and it sound like Ulfric was angry about not being picked.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:08 am

If you talk to Elisif she makes very clear that High King Torygg had a great deal of respect for Ulfric and would have probably declared indepence for Ulfric had asked him. Also last time i checked the moot decides who is king of skyrim not the empire and it sound like Ulfric was angry about not being picked.

1. She is grieving and not the best witness to what her husband might have done if he lived. She will probably believe what she wants to believe. Anything to paint her husband in the best light.
2. How do you figure Ulfric was angry about not being picked when there hasnt been a decision yet?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:11 am

I was all in with the Stormcloaks at first. Now I realize that the rest of Tamriel has no chance against the Aldmeri Dominion without an Empire. And that Ulfric is a racist bastard,

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:15 pm

1. She is grieving and not the best witness to what her husband might have done if he lived. She will probably believe what she wants to believe. Anything to paint her husband in the best light.
2. How do you figure Ulfric was angry about not being picked when there hasnt been a decision yet?

He was angry when Torygg was picked.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:19 pm

Yup, I was going for the stormcloaks until I went ta visit windhelm and then that's where my opinion changed

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:25 am

I was one of the few imperials in pre-release, and I will always be loyal to the empire.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:12 pm

i went for the legion first, over all i found that questline to be very boring. i have just started the storm cloak side of the rebellion so i don't know if it follows the same pattern as the legion, although i suspect that it does.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:55 pm

I would happily join the empire, but only if someone can give me a SINGLE GOOD REASON to follow hadvar other than already being a die hard imperial/thalmor.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:04 am

I would happily join the empire, but only if someone can give me a SINGLE GOOD REASON to follow hadvar other than already being a die hard imperial/thalmor.

The orcs, dummer, Imperials, and a large amount of nords support them.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:47 am

I would happily join the empire, but only if someone can give me a SINGLE GOOD REASON to follow hadvar other than already being a die hard imperial/thalmor.

General tulluis, although not very understanding of nord traditions, is not xenophobic.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:21 pm

I fight for the Stormcloaks, but recently my allegiance has swayed slightly towards the Empire for a few reasons.

The Empire represents unity, and unity is good for all. But when a unified nation is ruled by a coward tyrant, that is when I remember who I am for, and that is the Stormcloaks. The Empire is spread so thin against a small rebellion that they have to recruit locally. That is a bad sign regarding their military

The Empire fell with Uriel Septim VII and lingered on in anguish until Martin died until it was gone forever. Then some [censored] baron from the Colovian Highlands marches on the Imperial City and makes himself Emperor. No sir, you did not earn the title of Emperor and thus you are not an emperor. He and his descendants do not deserve to sit on the same throne that the Septims sat upon, nor piss in the same stall.

The Mede Dynasty abdicated and proved their worth as royal blood when Mede signed the White-Gold Concordat.

I understand the rebellion is severely weakening Skyrim's chances of defeating the Dominion (though I think it is possible, considering Paarthurnax begins to train all of the dragons and they could be used in the war effort and for several other reasons). Skyrim is land the Nords know and can use to their advantage. Nords will storm a line of Thalmor knowing death will meet them, but it will shaken the Dominion to know that these men are willing to throw themselves into the fray without a care, while taking out valuable troops.

I will eventually make a character that fights for the Empire, but I will always support the Stormcloaks and Talos.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:49 pm

The orcs, dummer, Imperials, and a large amount of nords support them.

I dont see dunmer leaving Windhelm enmasse to go help Tullius. Also, most Nords that are against Ulfric arent actually for Tullius. They just dont want to go to war.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:17 pm

My Orc knew he was going to join the Stormcloaks the moment the Empire tried to execute him. After completing the civil war quest my allegiance is still with the Stormcloaks. I do not take it personally when i hear them say things like "Skyrim is for the Nords" i just assume they mean that Nords should rule them selves rather than lets kick every race but the Nords from Skyrim.