The empire seems a lot more open minded than the storm cloaks too. At the very beginning during the escape hadvar says "You hear that? Stormcloaks, maybe we can reason with them." since you have a common enemy. But the rebels just attack on site like rabid dogs.

Many imperials are as you say xenophobic i remember oblivion lol... and not all the human characters are nords that are xenos ... then again i dont think they are racist... i think coutious just like the usa towards japanese or germans during ww2 but the japenese and germans did FAR worse then the U.S. ever thought of during that war......

I mean one of the first scenes you run into your own executioner and then an imperial torture chamber for those pesky talos worshippers.... let me see alittle caution or racism as your saying is worse then dragging people out to the streets and murdering them?

If you had a choice

between joining a military thats already had its but kicked and bent over the knee spanked Your telling me you would join them even if you had to kill innocent people becuase of what they worship.

Over a side thats overly cautious over non humans (for a damn good reason) I wouldn't say they are racist I just feel like not many live in skyrim cuz of the cold. Like many of the merchants will tell you. Besides they are right to label some of those elves as imperial spies go into their house some times..... Its not like all nords hate or are cautious to elves... you even have a quest that helps elves given by a nord...


In the end i've always played as a nord and dont believe you should be dragged out of your house, tortured and killed for what you believe.

Defending them by saying well thats the thalmor. well the imperials dont care thats the attitude they take

... besides THE thalmor are weakend too are they not? The Thalmor are destined to fail... with a skull crushed by a huge hammer...

I was the same way. At first, I thought I would join the Stormcloaks. I bet most people do since the Imperial Legion are trying to kill you in the beginning. But I a few things swayed my decision as I continued through the game.
First of all, most of the Stormcloaks are racist and don't like any foreigners. The Imperial homeland welcomes all races. Also, a lot of the people around Skyrim talk about how they think Ulfric just wants the throne to himself. I think that is probably true, especially since he is the one who murdered the High King. The Imperials are the better choice!

You seem to be very confused. Ulfric had no problem with Torygg at first. He liked Torygg's father even. Ulfric had been speaking about how he thought skyrim's best interest wasn't the empire for nearly 15 years. Torygg disagreed, despite his admiration for Ulfric. He would like to secede, but either isn't confidant in an independant skyrim, or believes the empire is the better choice. So Ulfric challenges him to the duel. Torygg accepts. The imperials have never involved themselves in these disputes before so why would it now? Torygg loses, that doesn't mean Ulfric is high king, it means the moot is called and a new high king is chosen. Though Ulfric will have a good claim to the throne by nordic standards with that challenge. The empire is afraid of losing its power and suddenly decides that nordic traditions are illegal now and orders Ulfric arrested. The civil war begins. The moot refuses to convene while there are hostilities. The civil war has to end before it can.

Shoulda just let them secede and formed an alliance instead. Don't lose troops, relations remain somewhat amicable, and trade continues.

couldn't agree more seems like most people just skim whindhelm seeing those two drunks harrasing an imperial sympathizer.... if that was the case in obilivion you shouldn't have joined the imperials cuz what some imperials say about the other races in that game.. doesn't make them bad i think they want depth and give context. rather then shove absolute good and evil down our throat...

alil racism vs. a blind eye to death squads im suprised people are siding with death squads...

They were trying to kill them without a trial. And it's the same in reverse- only you get to kill the *lovely woman* who insisted you go to the block.

The empire has stacked the deck, so he says, by hand-picking jarls and lining their pockets. Balgruuf is a good example, though Elisif is the most blatant and a milk drinker besides. So he has to even the score by gaining an upper hand militarily.

You don't see Tullius calling a moot. He'd sneer at the idea.

At first i wanted to side with the stormcloaks because I didn't like the fact that the Empire surrendered to the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire probably did this without any thought as to what they were actually doing (banning Talos Worship). I would think to myself why would the Empire do such a thing? I couldn't understand why they did this knowing there would be people like Ulfric and other nations like Hammerfell that wouldn't comply. "The Empire musn't be so great" I thought.

The more I played the more I realized that the stormcloaks were not what I thought they would be either. They are like the Thalmor except on the other side with their belief of Nord superiority. Sure not all Nords are racist but neither are all Altmer and Bosmer. I made my decision based on how I best thought the Aldmeri Dominion could be defeated. Through a more united Empire. I also gathered that most Imperials didn't agree to the WGC and they harbor the same amount of discontent for the Dominion as any Nord.

IMO supporting the Stormcloaks is like supporting the Aldmeri Dominion but in a different uniform.

I was ging to go stormcloacks until I reloads that they were helping the thalmor more than the empire because they are just tearing skyrim apart, which is what the thalmor want. I like to think that in the end you as the dragon born has a very good chance to become emperor and that you could play a very big part in helping the empire defeat the dominion now.

When I first started the game, joined them and went to Whiterun. It is already leaving a bad taste in my mouth when joining in Windhelm, talking to galmar, giving oaths, etc.. But Whiterun was the last straw. I deleted the character.

im an argonian, i side with stormcloaks. always have always will. people say ulfric is racist, i dont see it, that is just a very stupid assumption, people say the thalmor could take skyrim, that is not true, if they could they would have already (besides the leadership in the empire is terrible, they give up when the only way to survive is to fight, they willingly let mer kill people on a whim, but a smaller independent nation [hammerfell] could easily push the dominion back and come out on top, the empire is not good for skyrim), death to the emprie i say

Where did you see anyone on the Stormcloak side advocating eliminating other races? And of course they believe in Nord superiority. They're Nords. That's what everyone in Tamriel does. The Dunmer are Dunmer supremacists, the orcs think they're better than everyone, and the imperials think they have the right to rule over the whole continent.

How do you figure the logic that the empire can beat the Dominion when they didn't before? It doesn't matter if you're united (which the empire isn't and won't be even if you choose to extend their rule over Skyrim) when you're united under poor leadership that's dragging everyone down with them.

I am aware that the Empire isn't absolutely united. I think they stand a better chance with Skyrim's support.

Neglecting other races is just as bad as wanting to eliminate them. The argonians/dunmer poor living conditions in the docks/slums, their views on the khajiit and other elves is kind of closed minded. They aren't as malicious as the Aldmeri Dominion but they share dangerously similar thoughts.

You do realize this is the exact reason why the rebellion started right?

the argonians and ash-svcker conditions are brought on themselves, there is an altmer woman in windhelm who is doing fine because she actually made friends and made money (dunmer will not make freinds to save their life and argonians are discriminated against by the guy who owns teh docks and they wont leave to get a better job and get in) and the khajiit are drug dealers, that is not beign racist that is an honest to goodness fact that the caravans sell drugs that are illegal everywhere but elswyre. not to mention every race shares the same thoughts as nords (that is better than all other races), the only thing tht is different is what they do (the nords do ntohing to help nor hurt, the emprie takes over every sentiant race they can possibly over-take or trick, seems like imperials are the worse out of the two)

btw im an argonian fan, so this from a biased against all other races but argonians point of view who supports the nords

I guess you're right there. I think the banning of Talos was forced upon by the Aldmeri Dominion not really because the Empire wanted to abandon the Nords. How you look at it makes a difference. The gray area I suppose.

There really is no such thing as an empire anymore.
I suppose you're pretty ticked about the empire's neglect of Morrowind, Black Marsh, Valenwood and their negligence in Hammerfell. As for the Nords, all they want is a little imperial neglect.

lol.. why do you always speak so definitively. From what I can tell, there's an empire, and if the player chooses, the empire's standing grows, not dwindles.

I mean, I'm not going around saying there's no hope for the Stormcloaks either. There is if you choose it. Either Tullius or Ulfric can be thrown on their asses. Those are actual possibilties that don't have to be left to imagination.

Don't fast travel

I've had a few random encounters with random civilians, including dunmeri, in Estmarch and Rift, who tell me that they are on their way to Solitude to join Legion.

@topic
At first I was neutral, then I had my first Thalmor encounter which pushed me towards Stormcloaks because that early in my game I thought the Thalmor are with the Empire. But then I talked to some people, read some books, and my support for the Empire and pity for the poor Stormcloak soldiers grew stronger and stronger.

The only unsettled issue was my personal one: Empire almost had me killed. I hated Ulfric, but I couldn't forgive Tullius either. That was also solved as soon as I saw them both in person. Ulfric who, unlike any other Jarl, didn't give the tiniest crap about his own hold and even city - young women in his city are being butchered, I solve the crime, Ulfric never even notices any of this - too busy picturing himself on the High Throne; plus he tells me to 'leave my criminal past behind' - hello, lulwut, my only crime was accidentally being near HIM and getting captured and almost executed because of HIM. Tullius and Rikke on the other hand both apologized to me for Helgen.

One more thing that I don't see mentioned (much?) in countless Stormcloak vs Empire threads. If they so love and heed and worship Talos, why don't they fight and rebild and reunite the very same Empire that Talos fought for, built, united and ruled? Instead, with Talos' name on their lips, they help Dominion to ruin completely everything that Talos built.

Yeah, I thought that was funny. I happen to play criminals sometimes, but they don't seem to give any room for roleplay there. Probably the writer's fault.. You can at least not be so upfront with Baalgruff. You can tell him you're a criminal or simply not say anything.

That Empire died with Martin

The current iteration has over the last 200 yrs failed the Dumner when they needed help,failed the Orcs when they needed help and sold out Hammerfell to save Cyrodil.The worst part of Hammerfell was that the Empire was proven wrong about it's chances.If Hammerfell had fallen to the Dominion the Emporer would have had vindication in signing the WGC.
Currently they cannot even keep the Thalmor from taking Imperial citizens in Imperial territory.

Whether it's dead or not does not matter. You are given free reign to choose to resuscitate it.

Here's some wisdom from Eorland Grey-Mane. "... and people thought dragons didn't exist either. Just because something is, doesn't mean it must be."

The same argument could be chosen for the Stormcloak side too, so I'm not going to be too biased. If they have problems in their ranks with redneckish behavior, then there's nothing stopping you from purifying it. There are quests here and there along those lines. For example, Carlotta Valentia is an imperial in Whiterun who gets harassed by Stormcloaks. You can tell them to quit their [censored]. Just because they are one way doesn't mean it will always be one way for all eternity. Don't play the game like a spectator, but as a participant.

Well then, if Talos' cause is not worth fighting for, then perhaps Talos is not worth worshipping.

Edit: Talos' cause = Empire

Talos was a Nord before he ascended. So maybe it's time for Nords to stand up again and save the Empire and change it for better, stronger.

I was with the stormcloaks for awhile mainly cause the empire made an attempt on my life. but when I learned how racist the stormcloaks are to every other race even the beast races who have done nothing to them at all and that coward backstabber power hungrey racist manchild ulfric was I went back to the empire.

Tell that to the current Empire.

Korr(sorry havent got the hang of multiquoting it always comes out wrong)
I agree If you wish to back the Empire it is not beyond redemption.For me it is not something worth fighting for because it has lost it's right to rule due to it's many failures.
You will be happy to know I steer my fellow Stormcloaks towards less antagonistic behavior whenever possible.