this there's nothing stopping you from pesuing the "lock picking" skill. All it does with the method the other's havew been discussing is to have alternate methods using the skills sets the other "classes" have as the "primariy" skill set.

Some of you have appeared to miss the point of capitalism. The universe dopesn't revolve around you. Bethesdas job isn't to please you. Bethesdas job is to sell lots of product. They appear to have been very successful at it. Now, in the free market system, your choices are binary. 1) Don't buy the product. 2) Buy the product. You choose.

Oh, and BTW, the post you quoted, the argumentum ad populum fallacy doesn't apply. The post made no statement as to it being "right" or "good" because it's popular. It simply made a reasonably factual statement about how the markets work.

doesn't sound half bad.

I may be in the minority on this one, but i truly miss weapon and armor degradation.

I played through skyrim and kept pretty much the same weapon the entire time...It was sad really, never once was I forced to take on another weapon in an emergency due to my current weapon failing to live up to a fight...it could have been expanded on so much as well.

First off, it could have added an aged and weathered look with a graphic similar to how the blood graphic works, so over time without visiting a forge to repair it or resharpen it, it would continue to look worse until instead of breaking, it reached a critical point where it did minimum damage. Maybe make it appear broken but still able to use it?

Same for armor and the like, it continues to look weathered and beaten until you take it to a forge to get it repaired. Forget repairing on the fly, it was silly anyways. A patch maybe, but none of that fix it to 110% in the field BS. You would require a forge and skill or hand it off to various blacksmiths of various skill and wait the required amount of time.

But no, instead of improving on the idea...they gut it...

And magic...ohh sweet magic....people claiming that its so much better...and people much like myself wondering how...
Spell effects being unique? what? I dont care if they all look generic and overdone...If "feels" like my spells have been cut down dramatically because even if there are "new" ways to cast, they all become obsolete very quickly. Sure, your a lvl 81 mage...spraying fire out of your hands...but you appear as nothing more than a fly to that briarheart bashing your face in. Scaling magic is all well and good as a fix...but its not the right fix. What kind of mage only relies on the magic that is known through a book he can buy at the local market? A real mage would craft their own spells and create their own magic through research. Thats what spell making was about..thats what made mages fun. And for those saying that people would come to the board crying that the game was to easy...I call BS...i say they would come to the boards proclaiming their love to Bethesda screaming at the top of their lungs how the game is fun again!

Other things I miss include:
paying people to enchant my gear/make spels,
disintegrate weapons and armor spells and enchantments,
wearing more than a single ring at a time,
wearing robes over armor,
more armor choices,
enchanted arrows,
enchanting (spell making being gutted means enchanting in turn was gutted and a lot less fun)
other various spells and effects...

Meh...whats it matter anyways? The next iteration of TES will most likely have mages removed completely.

I think it′s perfectly fair for people to complain that a game has been changed for the worse to appeal to a different target group, I would certainly feel cheated if Mass Effect 3 turned out to be yet another pure FPS game.

However, I get the impression that many of the hardcoe Morrowind-Oblivion fans have not given the Skyrim system a fair try because the rosy shimmer that they place over the previous games makes them despise ANY feature that is different from Morrowind no matter how lame or unbalanced it may be. Coercion in Oblivion was not that fun, it just made me feel like some sort of social [censored] that would carry on a conversation with someone by alternating threats with sweet talk and blunt statements. The attribute variables was mostly a layer of perceived mechanics, which underneath did not have any real significant impact (whether I had agility 55 or 95 the defining factor as to whether I could dodge a fireball was still the timing of the strafe button rather than my character′s stats). Spellmaking had a significant impact, but was impossible to balance and created the same type of problems that the enchant-crafting system of Skyrim has.

Sure, lots of details in Skyrim could be deeper (lockpicking, social interactions), but let′s be honest here and point out that they were really not that deep in previous games either. Morrowind was shallow, because beyond all the fluff of being able to jump different distances or move at different speeds...what did it matter to the development of the story and character?

Don't worry, crafting will be gutted next time. Too many people complaining it's OP, and rather than seeking a balance for themselves, insist on being wet nursed by the game. Mark my words. It will be a damn shame too. Crafting as it stands PLUS spellcrafting would have absolutely amazing potential for fun.

God, I miss spellcrafting.

Let me just state right now: in the end, Skyrim pleased me. I simply feel Bethesda could have done better in some areas, and I can be vocal in explaining where. But what matters is overall, I feel Skyrim was well worth my money. Now...

Bethesda's job is not to please me?

Seriously, man, it is. Their job is to please me, along with you, and the thousands of others who post here, and the several thousand others who don't. Their life's work revolves around the entertainment of the end customer. That requires pleasing them. And it is only through pleasing them that they can continue to do business, for it is our money that funds their games. We don't get pleased, we stop buying, and then if enough stop buying, they stop making games. THAT is how the free market works. It is completely and totally dependent on the end user, because it is OUR money that makes the entire system work.

Of course, pleasing everyone is impossible, which is where the target audience concept was born. Bethesda simply tries to appeal to the audience that will provide the greatest revenue, and if I'm not in that audience, fine. I'll make due with what I was given, but don't expect me to remain silent about what I was displeased with.

I disagree. If you are role-playing a mage, you wouldn't want to bash a door in or lock pick because it is not part of your character's role. Same for a thief or a barbarian. And it makes sense that in real life you can bash a door or use a lock pick, and you should be able to in-game as well. So the other two are not pointless if you are role-playing your character. If you are just doing the most convenient method, then yes, you're right, the other two are useless.

Well, Skyrim DID please me, and many, many others, as outside of this forum I haven't heard a single bad word about the game from anyone I've encountered.

I'd also say that I'm part of their "core" market, as I've been a fan of Bethesda games since the very first second I laid eyes on Morrowind. That game captured me in a way I had never been captured before, and Bethesda hasn't let me down since. To this point, Bethesda is 4 of 4 in making my "favorite games of all time". My top 4 all time games are all Bethesda titles - Skyrim, Morrowind, Oblivion, and Fallout 3. So I'd say I'm in their "core audience".

And you can voice your opinion? Sure. But I can voice mine too, because I want it to be known what Bethesda did well, and I want it to be known who I DON'T want Bethesda listening to, because I don't want Bethesda returning the series to the dark ages because some people can't get out of the past, and their narrow view of what makes an RPG.

Morrowind was great - my favorite game of all time for 10 straight years until I got my hands on Skyrim. Quite frankly, at this point a return to the Morrowind way of doing things would be a huge step backwards, and I don't want that to happen because a few people -need- to have their Attribute numbers to tell them how to roleplay, and are hopelessly lost without them.

Does that mean Skyrim is perfect? Does that mean Skyrim can't be improved? No, absolutely not! I can name some things off the top of my head that Bethesda needs to pay a little bit more attention to to make sure it works properly.

But nowhere in Skyrim can I say that Bethesda took a wrong "creative" direction. Some of the quality control is questionable, some things need to work a bit more fluid, and I certainly wouldn't hate it if future DLC gave us some more spell effects and a functioning Spellmaking system.

But the actual creative direction the game took, from character customization and development, world detail, gameplay mechanics, were all steps in the right direction and I don't want Bethesda listening to the complainers of these features who want to regress the series by making it all a bunch of number crunching, calculations, and dice rolls. That stuff was cool at one time. But the games have evolved past that, and they are better for it.

Indeed that's how markets work. Hope by criticizing it a bit, in rational ways and manner, fans can keep Bethesda on their toes, so that they keep providing us with quality and not end up to another (Gothic) Arcania 4 or Fable 3.


+1


People here are talking about keeping content, which worked well in the past, along with improvements which were done in Skyrim. You may like some things which were completely changed but you can't just disagree, supporting everything they cut.

Now about features which are "one way or another", for example, like the in-game radar and compass you have, an option should be really added for people to choose if they want to use them or not and for that to happen the game should have been built for players to be able to play without it (npcs describing directions/journal entry).

Yeah, god forbid a game to work consistently without needing outside efforts at avoiding what it offers.

That's no excuse. Just because something is possible via another method doesn't make it an acceptable replacement. What if I want to role play as a mage? I need to fiddle with lockpicks now? Stones are a stupid replacement for birthsigns. Before you could enchant armor with feather enchants and carry tons of gear, or cast feather spells. So because you can brew a potion of strength that can't stack that is an acceptable replacement also? I don't think so. Maybe I don't want to be an alchemist, so its impossible to carry lots of loot without a follower or the steed stone.

Pretty lame for role playing. Yeah sure you can still do things but it doesn't help you role play.

Example:
As a mage I want to unlock with spells. It helps me level alteration which helps me cast bigger feather spells, better protect spells, etc. Now I pick a lock and my alteration stays the same yet I'm leveling and the world is getting harder but my combat or magic abilities didn't progress.

As a mage I'd rather enchant my gear with feather so I can carry a lot and not put points into strength or use all my potion slots (in oblivion) to carry more stuff.

As a thief I want to use potions to carry more stuff, and lockpicks to open chests. I want to put points into speed so I can outrun enemies, and put points into acrobatics so I can jump down cliffs and off balconies to make an escape.

As a thief I want to use alchemy to carry my loot. As a fighter I want to put points into strength to carry more stuff and do more damage.

All of these role playing alternatives to great character development have been removed and it has stifled replay value big time in my opinion. Sure you can still shout etheral to evade fall damage, use strength potions or steed stone to carry more crap, and open locks with lockpicks, but it removes the "solve this problem MY WAY" which is what role playing is all about. Having only one way to do things is one dimensional and narrow minded. Shame on Bethesda for removing key elements for role playing and doing things different ways.

Because that's what Oblivion was. In their development, they took everything that the Pocket Guide and Morrowind itself had established about Cyrodiil, and threw it all out just so they could turn it into a shallow high fantasy world. There was no political intrigue (despite a succession crisis). There was no ambiguity (all we see is a white-washed pro-Empire view). Worst of all: the whole Dragonfires subplot made the Alessia and Septim dynasties seem like a bunch of Mary Sues with the way it played up the Emperor as the only thing keeping demons from invading the world.

First spellmaking was more balanced than Skyrim crafting, the fortify for 3 seconds exploit would be solved in Skyrim having speaking and crafting in real time

For destruction, the default destruction was pretty weak, you could use weakness to boost it a lot but this would also increase casting time and cost as you had to cast multiple spells in fast order and you could easy be interrupted.
The weakness stacking could also be used on weapons, however they would hold few charges this way so it was best as an spare weapon or for bosses.

In Skyrim it's pretty easy to make a weapon who do over 150 in damage and increase this 200% with skill enchants.

Regarding the social minigame and bribing I don't miss it, feel it's better in Skyrim or Fallout where you either pass or fail an speech check based on skill instead of just bribe your way out.
Yes it's to few dialogue options in Skyrim but that is another issue.

@Bleak

Is that a valid request? Yes. Is that something Bethesda can implement in the future to improve the game? Yes.

But is that a valid reason to say that Bethesda is stripping content out without replacement for the sole purpose of "dumbing it down" so the simpletons can play it?

No.

And that's my entire point. Nobody wants to listen to anything, because it's not like it was in the past. I've had people argue with me that Attribute effects are no longer in the game, when they clearly are. Those people dont prefer the implementation, and that's fine, but they dont stop there, they go as far as to blatantly LIE to say that it's not there. People blatantly lie and say there isn't depth, where there is, because they simply dont prefer the implementation.

You say you'd like expanded quest directions and an option to turn off quest arrows and map markers?

I'd say Bleak, I agree with you and I hope that's something Bethesda considers for future installments.

But you say "quest markers dumb down the game and less quest directions is just stripping out prior complexity for no other reason than to make it easy for casuals to get more buys" and I disregard your argument as a childish tantrum. And I say that I dont want Bethesda listening to your input because you just want the game your way, and you will blatantly deny what is in the game because you dont like a specific feature, so you toss out blanket statements about the entire game.

I'd say the 90 hours I've given is a fair chance.

In the end, the perks are so bland an uninspiring that I built up a supply of 11 or 12 by level 48. Because I have nothing I desperately need, I really don't like the 30-some I've used because they're all boring, and it's not something Bethesda can or will patch.

HMS attribute system leaves me with about a 1% improvement in character ability per level. 3% of one third of the attributes. Meanwhile, I get dragons with an extra 1000 HP for my trouble. What was the point in gaining that level again? It's not like I'm going to live longer, have an extra power attack, or be able to cast a spell that will turn the tide on the basis of that last level. I was better off with my natural leveling mod in Oblivion.

Aside from the Daedric quests, the content provided is generally bland and devoid of any emotional connection. I don't do quests to do them, I do them because they wind up taking me to places I haven't seen. It might help if I could actually connect with an NPC, but they had their personality attribute removed.

We have a smaller bestiary than ever (I think), but hey, we've got 6 tiers of most enemies now, and lots of nicely designed places to go kill them. In a way, that's good enough for hours of gameplay. It's just that it's "good enough", and not "raising the bar".

Same.

Weapons and armour degrade. They just do, even modern weapons of today do.

I don`t like it being removed.

ps. And yea, Why is there NO ONE who can re-enchant my equipment? I`m a warrior not enchanter. I end up uisng enchanted weapons then just throwing them away when the enchant is used up. In previous games I went to a shop and got someone to enchant it back- Like popping in the batteries.

Not good.

Also for the record the "you" in my last post was "you" generally, not "you" Bleak, or anyone else specifically.

I meant that their job is not to please specifically YOU, which is what too many of the "serious gamers" on these forums seems to feel, that Bethesda need to make the game the way THEY want it, without exception, or they svck. I probably should have emphasised the "you".


Yeah, god fobid one of the "me-generation" should actually be self-sufficient enough to do something for him/herself or *gasp* show a little self-restraint!

The game can and does provide any range of "balance", from easy on master, to still tough on Apprentice, with a little work from the player. But hey, keep complaining. All of you. I've decided I WANT more stuff removed from the game, so in 4-5 years, I (and I will admit, I will probably feel some schadenfreude) can point you all towards these threads in answer to the inevitable tears, ranting, wailing, raging, blubbing and general caterwauling as to why game features have been removed. Like Chameleon. And spellcasting. They could be way overpowered... I've changed my mind. It's good Bethesda cut them out. After all, this way I get to experience MORE of what the game offers, without having to avoid any of what it offers.

Of course, I don't have to avoid what spellcrafting offers because it's. no. longer. there. But that's good, right? I'm experiencing less, but more fully!

Yeah, I guess that settles it. It's not really a good design if the answer to all the problems is self-restraining or replacement, but what ever. Rock on.

Why is there absolutely no sense of accomplishment after saving the world from Alduin and winning the war against the Stormcloaks/Imperials?... NONE..... AT.... ALL..........WTF!.......... Even Oblivion had a sense of accomplishment! Morrowind having the most! But this has absolutely none at all, it's just..... WTF!!!!! Immersion killer to the extreme...

bethesda needs to do their thing and know exactly what kind of game they want to make. user input is vastly overrated and it makes our games worse.
a game a small team of passionate people make is better in all essential aspects.

Naw... They follow Casual gamer input and what makes the most money input.... It's felt throughout the whole game =/

So many corners cut...... So many......................

Yea i got the "you" meaning.

Listen, about the "quest markers dumb down the game and less quest directions is just stripping out prior complexity for no other reason than to make it easy for casuals to get more buys", it may be a crude or too definitive way of saying things, but from my experience it's a true statement. Fact is most gamers are like this one here http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1331570-rant-of-the-casual-gamer/page__hl__rant%20casual%20player . As every market Bethesda tries to adapt and it is one of the reasons Skyrim is more "mainstream" than, say, Morrowind.

To speak more of the compass example:
Many for example don't enjoy exploring to find things - they just want them on their radar and have a compass guiding them to the goal. Finding locations and goals was one of the game's joys for me but for a casual player who does not have too much time to play like that it can be frustrating. However since a joy was taken from the game (for me), i must voice my discontent about it. Saying "casual people spoiled it" may be presumptious, but it does not really strain too far from the truth.

I don't say it didn't make improvements too, it did, but i personally do not consider certain things improved. I believe some things were good and some were bad. Also, personally again, i expected a more TES-like game, thus, i was kinda disappointed. Don't say it svcks or anything but i do believe fans should poke Bethesda a little to let it know they want an even better game.

Also you can't really say that "new content did not make it feel more shallow and that it's a lie" it's just a matter of different views. Or it can be a matter of what you enjoyed in the game.
In another post you say you didn't really use spell making, but for me for example, it was something i used for every character i created (except a "stupid barbarian character" or smth) and was really important.

You personally believe it's deeper and i understand where you are coming from. Some improvements did that. I, on the other hand, focus on the bad aspects (at least these which i consider bad), mostly aspects which worked well in previous games and were omitted. I focus there because i believe it's more constructive to do so for the game's future, i've done my share of praise and (a lot of) advertisemant.

i believe this is a fallacy. The more a game say "hi, like me, i'm so agreeable and easy to use" the less it will sell in the long run.
the sales of skyrim tell me that the series is beyond its peak. in quality, it was already deteriorating with oblivion.