Mmm very good reading. Through out it all the blades purpose was to keep the dragonborn alive so that they could do their job. Also should be stated from said text the dangers of not listening to the blades warnings. I still hold that the paar incident is a sign of loyalty to their cause since they are in return loyal to yours, hence since last empire that they served didnt listen to their warnings and said empire turned against them by letting the thalmor hunt them without consequences.

Also guide does not mean rule, they can take our guidience just like we take theirs. As long as we killing dragons doing our job, we can guide them to greatness or obscurity for all we care.

I just really really hope Bethesda puts out a dlc that does a good job reflecting our choices. Plus all the things we did for delphie as far as the thalmor, rescuing esbern, even unlocking the temple was all done for us the dragonborn to have info and the tools we needed to fight and defeat aldiin as well as the dragons. So u couldsee it as the blades have been doing their part, they feel its the dragonborn who is backsliding, going against what the blades are for seeing how paar pretty much famous.

All im saying is weither its right or not to kill paar is all on us, but as I listed in prevous post iys not a shallow situation or just delphie being a [censored]. Its like the situation with the stormcloaks, would side with a friend who became friends with your enemy? Also it ahould be stated that it is not known weither paar is a true friend or not seeing how the reason for helping defeat alduin is totally different than oura for defeating him. Paar goes against him because hes trying to rule over the dragons were as we are trying to defeat him by saving mankind. It should also be stated that paar goes off right after we tell of alduins defeat to try to take on the role of ruling over the dragons, which the dragons were against aldiun for. So we served his ends hence the reason for not atking us and helping us since the only weapon against alduin can only be used by a mortal.

I also love the fact that the two strongest women in the game that have somewhat a position of authority over the dragonborn (Maven and Delphine) are probably the two most hated characters. Seems a lot of people have mommy issues.

That's a rather interesting generalisation. Why would it jump to "mommy issues" for Maven, who is designed to be hated due to being a mafia boss, speaking casually of using the Dark Brotherhood (even if you are the Listener,) being in effect the true master of the Thieves Guild (even if you are the actual master,) and an ardent supporter of the Thalmor (in a Stormcloak-leaning city?) All of these things would make the character despicable regardless of whether the gender slider pointed left or right.

As for Delphine, most people that hate her also hate Esbern, for the same reason --- or, to be generous, hate Esbern differently because he at least articulates his beef with Paar.

I actually quite like how its not just a straight forward moral choice. It is one of the only difficult choices in the game. Delephine and the Blades are basically useless in this game mind you and I hate their attitude especially Delephine. If anything they put your life in danger for the majority of the game,

My comment was mostly tongue in cheek (mommy part); forgot to put the emoticon.

But it's just something I noticed. Obviously in a game like this people aren't going to like being bossed around and this is what Delphine and Maven do. It just happened to be two women I guess.

There's a lot more dragons to be killed than Parth-Naxty. They're just being A-holes.

But thats a dragon that only the dragonborn can get to without causing the whole of skyrim to be against him because he can freely pass the greybeards. Also that dragon that we can only get too is also the one that hes out taking over alduin.s wrong role and trys to domitnate the other dragons and become their ruler.

What does it matter if we're the only ones who can get there? We're the only ones who can permanently kill dragons anyway. I think killing the dragons that are actively attacking is more important than going after a dragon that might attack, but so far has displayed signs of loyalty and friendship to you.

Don't mean to burst your bubbles, but what does this thread have anything to do with Skyrim cheats, hints, and spoilers?

Edit: This contains spoilers, my bad.

again I see it as a preemptive measure, and also hes only friendly because we have the same goal of defeating alduin, so that afterwards paar can try to take alduins place, not as the world eater but as the ruler over the dragons sine paar is the strongest. Also the way of the voice makes dragons stronger, so also I leave him alive the dragons under him will become stronger. Remember that the rules of pacist dosent apply to dragons, so I see it as paar suppressing his need to dominate not to change himself but to be there at the spot so that when a dragonborn does come when alduins back, said dragonborn will have the tools to take out alduin. Hence when alduins gone, paars off trying to dominate again the very atribute hes been suppressing. Remember the only reason why the dragons want alduin gone is that alduon is auppose to eat the world, not rule over it, its not his job. But they did bevause he was the strongest and none could match or hurt him. Now that hes gone paar whose even stronger now is off to take alduins place.

Also we are already atking the active dragons, and unfortuantly the game mechanics wont have delphie or esbern leave the cave since if we need them their scripted to be there, but without that limitation whos to say that they wont recruit and atk dragons anyway? A dead dragon wont hurt nothingamd even if its temporary it wont stop them from going on with it anyways. They just want a leader whos with them and not beddong the enemy like the empire did, and evwn though its twmporary didnt stop them from allowing the thalmor to hunt down every blade indescrimately. they just want to bypass that if their new leader is gonna show signs of that.

Paarthurnax wants Alduin gone because he's abandoned his role as World Eater. Odahviing makes it sound that many dragons resent the way he lords himself over everyone in general. They all seem to think he's tyrannical, but they obeyed him out of fear. I don't think they'll be lining up to become lackeys to Paarthurnax right off the bat. At the end, all of the dragons are talking about how they're free now that Alduin's gone, and Odahviing doubts how successful Paarthurnax's attempt at converting them to the Way of the Voice will be. And even if the Way of the Voice is stronger, one of Alduin's greatest advantages was that he couldn't be slain on Nirn. Paarthurnax can be, so unless he is infinitely stronger than Alduin is (which doesn't seem likely considering how easy he seems to be to kill when you are fighting him, plus the fact that he isn't able to push Alduin by himself when you face him on the Throat of the World), I think there are dragons who could fight and kill him. They may have to gang up on him, but they can do it.

Besides, Paarthurnax doesn't say anything that makes it sound as though he's going to dominate at all. He says that without Alduin, they might bow to the righteousness of his thu'um. That suggests to me that he's going to try and use his old station to get some followers, not to become their dominator, but to become their leader. I don't dominate any of the guilds I'm in, I guide them. That's what I think Paarthurnax is going to do, because if he does start dominating the dov, he'll probably end up relapsing and trying to dominate other things, which would give me cause to kill him.

Finally, when it comes down to it, Paarthurnax isn't the dominant dovah after Aludin's defeat anyway, you are.

Eh, if Paarth goes rogues, the bears will take care of business.

QFT....

Eh, if Paarth goes rogues, the bears will take care of business.

And if the bears can't, the Riverwood chickens will.

Very good points there, its nice to debate or discuss with someone who brimgs alot of good points to the table. Which brings us back to topic with delphie, if we are there to the blades to guide them, not dominate them then I find it on those grounds that delphie and esbern are not in the wrong for not wanting to follow me for sticking up for their beliefs, because we are there to guide not dominate so while we may not agree to their dissions with paar, in no way means are they suppose to cave to our every whim. That they have the right for that sign of commitment and that they have the right to not follow someone who dosent have the same determination as them. And that is why I dont believe the whole situation is uncall for, a bit uncomfortable but in all rights of their asking, since everything that we have done for them helped them yes, bit ultimately was all for us. The thalmor seeing if they were behind it, saving esbern who is very knowledgeable in the dragon lore, and even the temple was the place that had the treasure trove of data to be used against the dragons and alduin, basically all of it helped us as well, they want something as a sign that purely just benefits them as a sign that ur with them and behind their cause, not there to leech off of them and abandon them when ur done. Your are their very reaspn for going on and they want to be sure ur up to par with them. I agree that their timing was off, I believe it woulda been better to do it after alduin, but maybe they just wanted to celebrate witha fullpledge blade or maybe it was because paar would go flying off etc etc. bit I dont think their as big of [censored]s or that they aint following lore.

Part of the problem is how most of the guilds are structured: they're designed where you become leader after half a dozen quests or so. The leaders also follow to types of paradigms: Do nothings (Kodlak and Savos) and Usurper/betrayer (Mercer and Astrid).

Delphine's an Alpha kind of person, and sees this as an opportunity to rebuild and get power. She probably feels that she has to do something to demonstrate power of the Dragonborn, and ordering him to kill Paarthurnax is both something that tests how much power she has and can get her a "critical victory," in her mind at least. It's also a bit of an F-you to the Greybeards, who she clearly has issues with.

If I were on the PC, I'd probably console complete the quest to maintain friendships with both parties, because while I wouldn't kill Paarthurnax, I wouldn't outright abandon the Blades either. I'd spend a long time trying to get them back on my side, and I think I could actually manage to do so, given enough time. The three Blades I recruit would probably rally to me, considering I'm the one who brought them there and I can point to my predecessors as the true leaders of the Blades, and I think Esbern could be talked into agreeing that it's better to have some form of control over the dragons with Paarthurnax rather than killing them and having them roam aimlessly. Delphine would probably be the major holdout, and that's because of her not wanting to lose this symbolic victory.

I wouldn't kill Delphine or Esbern if they refused to listen to me, but if they continued with that whole "You're either with us or against us," thing regarding Paarthurnax, I'd definitely cast them out of the organization. I'd let them continue calling themselves the Blades, but my group would be renamed the Dragonguard to reinforce our ties to the Akaviri from whom our organization is descended. It would also serve to separate us from the Empire, which is good because without Ulfric Stormcloak leading the charge, I probably would have sided with the rebels and fought for Skyrim's independence. Lastly, it would also either prevent the Thalmor from messing with us an institution, or at the very least it would split their forces on us, since they'd have separate forces dedicated to purging us and the Blades.

According to legend it was by the divine intervention of Kyne that Paarthumax saw the error of his ways. Our history, lore and religions are full of example of people who are moved to compassion by divine intervention and they don't simply say "sorry": they devote the rest of their lives to mend their errors.

The debate between 'an eye for an eye' supporters and "vengeance is not a good thing" ones is inappropriate as long as you don't take into account that what happened is divine will. The blades are totally ignoring that because of hubris: they fashion themselves the ultimate judges and saviors of mankind while men and mer had already saved themselves from Dragons long before this merry band of Akaviri dragon slayers reached Tamriel shores in the 2nd era.

Beautifully said. Our sole function was to stop Alduin, not to run around being a pasty to everyone disguised as the hand of God. All though I see no problem with finding subtle ways to maintain order in the world, I find that throughout the game you are given many opportunities that entice you to abuse your status. However, when it comes to the Blades, you aren't abusing that power, they are abusing you. At the beginning the Grey-beards tell you to not abuse your powers but, also state that you must forge your own destiny. If you put all of what is said into a single idea, I'm sure what you could come up with is, that they want you to aid the world how you see fit; but, don't become a blind patsy to a cause. Every Dragonborne before you passed up the opportunity to kill the one dragon they are telling you must pay for his crimes, why me and why now? Delphine can't be bothered to explain anything to you or even listen to your side of story for that matter; which, leaves me with one obvious conclusion, they see you as a dog that will do tricks for them, nothing more.

Looking at the direction the ES is going, the Blades will more than likely not exist beyond this game. In my opinion I believe it's better for you and them to simply let the Blades go out quietly, with what little dignity they have left and you still in control of yourself. Even an ambitious Dragonborne wouldn't lower him/herself to fetching coffee for a bitter old woman with no reason to live.

Ok been looking and I believe I finally found the blade oath, the oath is basically an oath to rid tamriel of dragons. With me not killing paar means I am going against my oath as a blade, the deal with oda letting him live is because hes still useful wereas paar is no longer useful. Since he is no longer useful, he needs to be putdown because sololy hes a dragon. His past crimes are just mentiomed to ease ur mind as well to reiterate that paar has killed thousands before seeing how there were many rebellions before they finally won. Its also interesting that the priests of the nine devines claim akatosh intervened, meaning that which ever way u wanna believe if paar is a sololy good guy then akatosh dis or if u believe he helped us to oveethrow to take alduins place, then it could be the priests of the nine devines pulled a tribunaral priest on us. Meaning that they took advantage of the situation seeing how men were using the thuum before the first dragonborn came into play.

Also the blades are overzealous in their work, but they are keeping to their oath by not helping you since their oath requires them to rid of all dragons, and seeing where paar lies, we are the only one who can kill him and fulfill our oath. The greybeards on the otheehand believe that doing nothing is the beat way to go about things, to let things take their course. So seeing how their oath requires to get rid of all dragons, they would be breaking their oath by letting or aiding in the total survivability of paar.

Could you put a citation to the oath?

I don't remember taking an oath in MW or Ob. How do we know the stuff Delphine is getting followers to vow isn't something she created?

Paarthurnax would of been killed if he rebelled against Alduin in the dragon war. He intimidated all dragons because it is said that HE had the strongest Thu'um. I don't think Paarthurnax was in the mood for being killed by his own brother.

ok sorry misread the followers so i was wrong on finding the oath. I thought the blade recruits said pledged in past tense meaning they they pledged an oath to slay dragons, but they say that they pledge meaning like right now to rid the dragons. But it is of my opionion that killing the dragosn of tamriel is in the blade's oath, but no one knows because theres no info on the actual oath or what it entails.


Im of the mind that its not somethign delphie created, but that it was in there at the beginning, and ill explain why i think that. The blades were formed when they met tiber septim, and they folowed him because he was the dragonborn, the ultimate dragonslayer. Now at the time there was only one dragon alive but tiber had put it to work by guarding soemthign important, cant remember for the life of me. That dragonborn was an emporer, and im of the mind that when they found paars location, they were denied because of who they had to go thru to get to paar. If the blades went thru the greybeards to get to paar either 2 thing would happen, one they cause an uproar by killing the greybeards and theresa huge political fiasco in skyrim which problemly would have caused a civil war, or two the blades woulda been shouted apart and still woulda caused a huge fiasco. So either way, with the emporer at the time conquering and stabilizing nations, this would have been counterproductive and political suicide for tiber, and tiber was alot smarter than that. he had more important work for the blades to do in his opionion. The blades did slay the other dragons that they found, but why were they denied paar? No one really knows, but the greybeards being there and how respected they are in all of skyrim can be the reason. As far as why the blades didnt quit tiber when he refused and all the others emporers could have been that the emporers were doing their job as in ruling and the blades going thru the greybeards woulda gone against the emporers role and job by highly possibly having skyrim break away or go to war with the empire. I mean u get rid of talos in skyrim and theres a civil war with 2 different opionions on the severarity, BUT go against the greybeards which EVERYONE respects and honors? total chaos. Now our dragonborn is not an emporer and we can bypass the whole fiasco of having to battle the greybeards. So at the time we get the demand to kill paar we have all the info we need form boths side on how to defeat alduin, and killing paar does not interfer or mess up our goal of slaying alduin, so if there is an ancient oath of slaying all dragons in tamriel then we would be going against that oath since theres nothign to stop us from slaying paar. reason why i believe that slaying dragons is part of the oath, is that the blades keep records, lore, and intel on the dragons and even the recipes of potions to use to defend against dragosn all the years after there hasnt been a single dragon for thousands of years, ud figure if it wasnt part of thier aoth or part of thier rules int he society that it would have been done away with long ago. It was so important that they spent a freaking fortune on the wall that depected thier prophisy, one that esbern said that every blade member knew by heart, so it is depected that something on the dragons were part of the blades up until the thalmor started wiping them out. Like i said, i ahve no proof and no one knows, but it is hinted quite a bit that its a very good possiblity thats it part of it. And if it is, then they would be goign aginst the oath since theres nothing stopping or hndering the dragonborn from killing paar and by leaving him alive, they are in fact helping keeping a dragon alive for no reason but to keep it alive.
And if there is an oath, seeing how the blades originally came for the land where the dragons were the masters at one time and the dragon war wasnt that long ago, problemly at the time the oath was created was because during the time of the oaths creation the memories were still fresh on what had been done, and for a good bit of the time ALL the dragons had been part of putting down the moral's rebellion. So while we may not see the significance of the crimes done wayyyy in the past, the oath may in fact be an honoring and revenge for the dead thus important for all the blade members that come along. again just speculation, but the oath killing dragons if there is one in the baldes oath by what we can see from delphie and esbern came from the dragonguard that was carried over into the philosphy of the blades.

Regardless of WHY they let other dragons live, the fact that the Blades used to do so means that they can make exceptions to their "Kill all dragons oath," because I doubt they originally had an asterisk there that stated "Except for those that pledge to serve the Emperor of Tamriel." So an exception can also be made for Paarthurnax.

Moreover, even if Paarthurnax hasn't sworn an oath to us, I interpret his rebellion to be an oath between him and the Divines, specifically Akatosh and Kynareth to defeat Alduin for abandoning his role as World Eater and not to enslave humans. That to me is a much higher oath than anything he can swear to me, and therefore it carries more weight.

Also, Paarthurnax is much more valuable as a living dragon than he is as an absorbed soul, especially to the Blades. If Paarthurnax succeeds in wrangling, let's just say 10% of dragons to the Way of the Voice and to go against their urge to dominate, that's 10% less of the dragon population the Blades need to spend time, money, and lives hunting down. I imagine he'd be much more successful than that, and could probably bring in a majority of the dragons under his rule. Better yet, some that he failed to convince not to fight might still seek protection from the Blades by pledging allegiance to the Dragonborn. The rest could be hunted down.

I suspect Delphine may have just adopted the Oath of Allegiance of The Dragonguard (if she knew it). A lot of time has passed since the First Era, and The Blades have spent most of their existence in a world where it would be irrelevant to swear an oath to kill dragons.

Well yeah I don't like Delphine. She doesn't want to hear Paarthurnax's side of the story, and even if she did, she probably wouldn't trust him. I guess she's just too proud to break the Blades' oath and let Paarthurnax live. The Dragonborn can't turn her head to show her Paarthurnax is exceptional. Anyway, if she wants Paarthurnax dead, why can't she just kill him herself?