Does Bethesda not value critism or fan feedback at all?

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:25 pm

I've never known Beth to cave and listen to players--correct me if I'm wrong--still I think their games are the very best out there (Witcher's good too though). time for another cup of coffee..... :yawn:

I can think of a lot of things, actually, that Bethesda did in response to players complaints/feedback.

People complained how stupid it was at the end of FO3 for their Lone Wanderer to end up dying when Fawkes, Charon, or that one Mr. Handy companion robot who's name I can never remember was standing right beside you. You know, the supermutant who is immune to radiation, the ghoul that is healed by radiation, or the robot that can ignore the radiation couldn't push those buttons at the end of it all. Well, from what was said on the forums by the devs during the development of the game, the Lone Wanderer was supposed to be exactly that; the Lone Wanderer. There weren't supposed to be any permanent companions. But people complained to the point that Beth added the companion option, and, due to the time constraint I guess, couldn't fix how it screwed up the ending. Then due to all the complaining on the forums they added Broken Steel. For me, that broke the game; I liked the story arc of the original game and the Alpha/Omega symmetry of the definite end. A lot of people wanted to continue after the end.

They did it a lot with the ES as well. People complained that Morrowind was no challenge for their high level characters. So Tribunal happened and people found out that the enemies were stronger, and they leveled up their high level characters higher, and complained there was no challenge. So Bloodmoon happened, and higher level characters got killed a lot, so people leveled up their higher level character even more and went looking for the level 99 werewolf for a challenge, and people complained there was no challenge for their super uber leet demigods. Oh, there were a lot of complaints about no horses in all three games. So Oblivion happened, and Beth tried to take care of the "my character has no challenges in the game" with the level scaling. [I'm not saying there were no issues with the level scaling, but they did do it in response to people's complaints.] There were horses in the game.

So now there is Skyrim. The level scaling is better than Oblivion; I haven't been attacked by any bandits or marauders wearing daedric armor using daedric weapons. The horses are a little better than Oblivion. There are children in the game, running through the streets and playing. You can hire wagons to travel. There are things that could be improved, of course. There are issues in the game. But I really can't say that Bethesda ignored what people wanted. They didn't, thank the Divines, listen to every suggestion on the forums, but they did listen.
User avatar
Rachael Williams
 
Posts: 3373
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:43 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:56 pm

I love how you assume that the only things fans complain about are gameplay-related.

That's because graphics ultimately matter little. A game with good gameplay but bad graphics will still be good. Game with bad gameplay will be bad no metter how pretty it is.
User avatar
Anna Kyselova
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:42 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:43 pm

That's because graphics ultimately matter little. A game with good gameplay but bad graphics will still be good. Game with bad gameplay will be bad no metter how pretty it is.
And yet fans never cease complaining about them. Well, until Skyrim came out and it was 'good enough' that people could start complaining more about other things.

Silent Hill 2 invalidates your claim about graphics vs gameplay. I won't get into it because it's a tedious argument and I doubt you'd actually listen to anything I said.
User avatar
Cagla Cali
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:36 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:58 pm

That's because graphics ultimately matter little. A game with good gameplay but bad graphics will still be good. Game with bad gameplay will be bad no metter how pretty it is.
Graphics adds much to the gameplay though...
A good game with good graphics is an even better game!
User avatar
megan gleeson
 
Posts: 3493
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:01 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:15 pm

I disagree with almost everything the OP said, and I love Skyrim. Wouldn't change a thing, except I wouldn't have included essential NPC's, and I would have left in the Open Lock spells.
User avatar
Chris BEvan
 
Posts: 3359
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:40 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:11 pm

The level scaling is somewhat better: Monsters of one name are a set level, and they only scale to a certain point (there are no bandits higher than level 25, though I think bandit bosses reach 30). It's still annoying though, and when applied to some creatures comes off as daft (Dragons killed by bears). At highest level I would assume the world makes a little more sense, as Ancient Dragons are the highest level monsters in the game (barring the 3 things that level; guards, soldiers, Alduin)

Loot scaling is still quite terrible

I liked the story, apart from
Spoiler
Alduin's fight at the end - he didn't have nearly enough to do or enough health when its 4 v 1, so he didn't seem as awesome as by lore he should have been

The world has very, very rarely reacted to you in a Bethesda game (Morrowind the most - people annoyingly praised you as Nerevarine). Fallout 3 did a bit, and Skyrim occasionally does (Thieves on roads won't steal from guild members, and react to you completing the questline as well) it's something they need to keep working at, they'll get there in the end

Walking does have rewards. You find places, the scenery, and they added random encounters (not just random monsters) which adds quite a lot to the journey. In Morrowind and Oblivion, walking only yielded dungeons, loot, monsters and scenery, plus a few extra finds. Daggerfall and Arena didn't even do that, so Skyrim actually has the most reward for walking.

AI is better, Archers move, wolves flank you etc. video game AI can be one of two things: Specialised and good, or generalised and bad, Skyrim, being an open world, has to have generalised AI. This will remain a problem for some time.

Agreed on followers, agreed on anti-climatic, semi-agreed on characters.
User avatar
Nichola Haynes
 
Posts: 3457
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:54 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:01 am

It's probably better if they don't see your criticism. Beth have always had a tendency to scrap features rather than fix or improve upon them.

Gamers: "The combat system could be a lot better"

Bethesda: *Removes combat from the game*

Hit the nail on the head. People whine about stuff and instead of fixing the problem. BGS just keeps gutting the series more and more.
User avatar
OJY
 
Posts: 3462
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 3:11 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:01 pm

You seem to only look at the negative and ignore all the positive improvements.

A few things which have been improved over Oblivion that I have noticed--

More unique and distinctive landscapes to explore and much more atmospheric weather which creates the illusion of distance.
Better geography, we now have valleys you have to navigate around instead of Oblivion's giant bowl.

More things to interract with in the wilderness, like wild animals, fish, insects, flora that looks picked when you harvest it, etc.

A visible economy with markets, mills, mines, hunters, etc.
Distinctive and interesting towns and many more minor settlements.
Carriage travel between cities.

A choice of companions (instead of just Adoring Fan).

Crafting, cooking, and the return of enchanting as a skill.

Fascinating and varied dungeons many of which have their own backstories and events. The return of the Dwemer ruins is cool.

Better level scaling.

More unique loot. Like you can find a full set of Falmer armor and daedric and dragon and other high level items are very rare.

Better integrated lore, like with the Forsaken of the Reach, the Falmer, Dwemer, holds, and quests drawn from many of the books from previous games like the Wolf Queen of Solitude and mad Pelagius.

Endless questing for those that want it.

More voice actors.

Perks and new types of magic with the Dragonshouts.

And a dozen other things which I can't think of right now.
User avatar
Big mike
 
Posts: 3423
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:38 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:40 pm

Cannot agee with the substance or the spirit of the OPs post.
The very success of the TES games is down to listening to fans...and there are many improvements in Skyrim over the earlier games.
How can Bethesda possibly satisfy the personal gripes of every fan?
They cant.
Especially daft ones like to OPs claim that "traveling by foot offers almost no rewards or excitement other than sight seeing".
You must have no curiosity or imagination; I find the world chock full of interest.
You want to be spoon-fed? Maybe this kind of game isnt for you?
User avatar
x_JeNnY_x
 
Posts: 3493
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:52 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:25 pm

To add more to the above:

That different characters now play differently rather than how in previous games you quite often found that, although starting out different, you all ended up the same in the end due to the dominance of Skills.

That NPCs in cities do not want to talk to you about the geography of the land (and call it a rumour, seriously, you HEARD that the Imperial City is surrounded by a lake? Are you blind!?)

The presence of politics and some amount of grey areas

More underwater content - at about Morrowind's level, maybe a little more. Want grottos but other than that it's good.

Actual large scale changes to the status quo - admittedly few in game, but plenty in backstory. I was getting sick of the Empire ruling everything and nothing really happening.

No [censored] mudcrab convos - convos are actually unique if often canned and happen less.

That's all I can think for now to add
User avatar
Stephanie Kemp
 
Posts: 3329
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 12:39 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:06 am

I think the problem is that Bethesda wants to please its long-term fans, but they want bags of cash even more.

For this reason they still try to cater to everyone (especially consoles) by simplifying their games and the long term fans and detail can go out the window.

Consoles bring in the dosh! Luvly jubbly.
User avatar
Soraya Davy
 
Posts: 3377
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:53 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:57 pm

...dude they pretty much copy pasted some mod ideas....
And is that wrong?

*They own anything made with their tools; a condition of making them available to use. If the Mod ideas were so good that they assimilated them into the series... That's all for the better IMO.
User avatar
Eduardo Rosas
 
Posts: 3381
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:15 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:43 am

I wanted boots and gloves that weren't armour as enchanted mage apparel. I posted about it loads, and the circlets. Small things compared to some concerns, obviously, but hey, presto! Just saying, like.

Anyway, if they listened that much, no Morrowind, just Daggerfall 2, and maybe another company consigned to history.
User avatar
Ann Church
 
Posts: 3450
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:41 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:07 pm

Bethesda does indeed listen to their fans. Remember the huge controversy over lack of in-world fast travel services, such as silt striders? Well, we got what we wanted. Remember the slightly less huge controversy over Cyrodiil being the most boring, bland, uninspired fantasy world ever to exist? Well, we got Shivering Isles, then we got Skyrim, which has a lot of culture and intrigue in the world.

Most of the things you listed there aren't a problem to most people, I don't think.
User avatar
Dan Stevens
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:00 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:27 pm

With the exception of no rewards for travelling on foot these problem also plagued Morrowind, and all of them plagued Daggerfall(or at least that's the impression I have after playing it) as well. Just because something is bad you shouldn't assume that Oblivion is the first game in the series to do it.
User avatar
Spencey!
 
Posts: 3221
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:18 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:07 pm

If the criticism is valid, which if we were to go with the OP's points it isn't Valid.
User avatar
Bethany Watkin
 
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:13 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:07 am

They do listen to fan feedback. The only problem is that they listen to the not chunkymans of the forum. And we all know how wrong a not chunkyman is.
User avatar
Pete Schmitzer
 
Posts: 3387
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:20 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:32 am

Hey, OP, go to Google. Search "Skyrim reviews". Read.

THAT is what Bethesda is looking at (and rightly so). HINT: it doesn't matter if YOU think reviews are bunk.

Nobody cares about the whiners (and rightly so). HINT: [censored]ing accomplishes NOTHING. That whole thing about squeaky wheels getting the grease? Fail argument.
User avatar
Hairul Hafis
 
Posts: 3516
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:22 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:13 am

They value it. They soar in sales and acclaim for a reason. And that's by not listening to opinions like yours.
They're sellouts. TES was a niche genre, one which many people absolutely loved, and now Bethesda is changing everything just to make more money. If you had said, 10 years ago, that a TES game would have forced 3rd-person kill animations and a magic compass, people would have called you insane.

They don't listen to their customers. They listen to money, and if turning TES into something entirely different means making more money, they're going to do it. Unfortunately, that also means ignoring a large amount of bugs. Why would they bother fixing them when they can rely on us to do it while they make another game?
User avatar
Ann Church
 
Posts: 3450
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:41 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:24 am

The only feedback Bethesda is concerned with now is the feedback from all the people who couldn't find Casius in Morrowind and those who think actuallly using your brain is something absurd in an RPG.

Bethesda has shown they don't care what people who like RPG's think. That is a shame really.
User avatar
Michael Korkia
 
Posts: 3498
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:58 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:33 pm

They're sellouts. TES was a niche genre, one which many people absolutely loved, and now Bethesda is changing everything just to make more money. If you had said, 10 years ago, that a TES game would have forced 3rd-person kill animations and a magic compass, people would have called you insane.

They don't listen to their customers. They listen to money, and if turning TES into something entirely different means making more money, they're going to do it. Unfortunately, that also means ignoring a large amount of bugs. Why would they bother fixing them when they can rely on us to do it while they make another game?

Customers buy Bethesda games (in truck loads by the way)....customers = money.
Bethesda make games most of their customers enjoy.
Sounds like you dont enjoy these games...so why bother complain about them.
User avatar
Brad Johnson
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 7:19 pm

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:20 am

Every single one of your points could be answered with: it's still better than the last game.

For the 100th time, stop complaining that it's not good enough, when it's loads better than the LAST GAME. They made progress. They improved. They DID listen to fan criticism and looked carefully at the mods that were created for previous games.

I wish people would stop making their expectations ridiculously high. "But New Vegas had this and this..." STOP comparing this game to other series. If you want to compare it to anything, compare it to previous TES games. That is the ONLY fair comparison to make.

/rant
User avatar
D LOpez
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:30 pm

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Every single one of your points could be answered with: it's still better than the last game.

For the 100th time, stop complaining that it's not good enough, when it's loads better than the LAST GAME. They made progress. They improved. They DID listen to fan criticism and looked carefully at the mods that were created for previous games.

I wish people would stop making their expectations ridiculously high. "But New Vegas had this and this..." STOP comparing this game to other series. If you want to compare it to anything, compare it to previous TES games. That is the ONLY fair comparison to make.

/rant

good rant!
User avatar
roxxii lenaghan
 
Posts: 3388
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:53 am

Post » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:42 am

I think Bethesda does listern to crictism when it's put out in a constructive way, but at the end of the day it's up to them if they listern to it or ignore it.
The problem with that is...

1. Those calm enough to "construct criticism", are not having real issues... (Thus, you are "Fixing" to the minority, not the majority.)
2. Unconstructive criticism, is what others relate to, in the majority... Those are issues which are so bad, that they over-power rational thought, and are driven by emotion. Those are the people who run around telling everyone about the bad issues, online and offline, and destroy companies in the process, when ignored... (The majority.)

The "constructive" stuff, is the least worthy issues. The emotional stuff, is the greatest issues. Obviously, if it is big enough to irk them that much, to be irrational, then it is greater.

Seriously, you think someone "calmly willing to wait for a fix", is going to have enough social influence to break a game on a social level. On the opposite end, they will not have any impact trying to defend the game, for the same non-social pull. (Not to mention when they get smashed by someone following their advice, and buying the game, but getting burned... and coming back to attack john-doe-shylock-constructive-criticizer.)

Now on the opposite end... A mob of people spouting-off the "issues they have", and "pointing out the failure of apparent support"... Like they did for morrowind, and oblivion... (The reason why those two games died fast, died hard, and were left to fans only. With Mods being the only thing which revived the game for the majority of old and new players, on the PC. Which is why Beth lost, and borrowed all that content for this version, leaving the modders without reward, though they kept the game alive. As fallout did, as vegas did... Though vegas wasn't beth.)

They have poor marketing managers, who are just spam-hype pushers, overpaid, and force the releases out, before they should be released.

They made the poor decision to "not use real users" for testing. (Using fan-boys for testing is like the king asking the jester if his robes look good. Yes , emperor, your wardrobe is fine.) That does not get you the real-world responses which "Pay Top-dollar for this game, and then tell me if it was worth it." or, "Play this, and let us know if something doesn't work, or you get stuck, or something isn't clear."...

No, they rely on internal testing, and fan-boy walk-throughs, which limit actual testing, since they force you to play through specific things... Plus the designers all over-look the obvious, which a real paying customer would not over-look. (Like most artists get "use" to their flaws, and often can't see the crap on the end of their nose, because they know how to walk around, ignoring the smell. Sit in the bathroom long enough, and you no longer smell the stench.)
User avatar
Ben sutton
 
Posts: 3427
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:01 am

Post » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:17 pm

Every single one of your points could be answered with: it's still better than the last game.

For the 100th time, stop complaining that it's not good enough, when it's loads better than the LAST GAME. They made progress. They improved. They DID listen to fan criticism and looked carefully at the mods that were created for previous games.

I wish people would stop making their expectations ridiculously high. "But New Vegas had this and this..." STOP comparing this game to other series. If you want to compare it to anything, compare it to previous TES games. That is the ONLY fair comparison to make.


Yeah well, that's just like your opinion, man.
User avatar
Chantel Hopkin
 
Posts: 3533
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:41 am

PreviousNext

Return to V - Skyrim