I agree.

Morrowind was a PC game, that was later ported to Xbox
Oblivion and latter was a console game, ported to PC.

Well, but somebody who joined with Oblivion of course wouldn't know that...

So you're saying that the design direction behind a game fundamentally changes based on whatever the lead platform is? Aside from the technological limitations of the consoles and the different ideal user interfaces, what is so majorly different about a PC game than a console game?

Also, I started TES with Daggerfall, so you can shove that last statement you-know-where.

Guys, what we all need to realize is that, sadly, we are the minority. We may love and cherish this series, but there is much profit to be made from the masses, and Beth knows this. We are not that important to them. Joe blow on the street corner is. Its just business.

I don't doubt that they planned to release dlc.

*I don't recal which (likely Todd Howard), but I was sure that one of them (IIRC) said something to the effect of "we learned our lesson". Perhaps that too was PR?

**Does anyone else remember this?

Well consoles are (usally) not exactly known for their in-depth RPGs...
Also they are limited by disc-size. I mean cmon. Even the most linear PC-RPGs are at least twice as big, while they have to cut corners everywhere just to make it fit on consoles.


Yeah, sorry about that.
It's new years and I'm a bit drunk. Your comment also sounded very uninformed...

I have to ask where your source for this is...

When fans complain about a thing, other fans defend it. There is nothing to prove that Bethesda doesn't listen.

no, they are daedra worshiper

-Story is still weak
(praise namira)
-Most characters are forgettable
(praise sheogorath)
-Modders are fixing bugs and making balancing tweaks at a much faster pace and more successful then any official patches.
(praise boethia)
-Nothing you do in the world seems to matter or have any noticeable impact including completing major quest lines; making the world seem very dull and lifeless and rarely does anyone or the world react to what you have done.
(praise nocturnal)
-Repetitive content throughout the world. Beyond level 30 I feel as if I am doing the same things over and over again. "Go here, kill some draugr, go here, kill some bandits... oh look a dragon!"
(praise mehrunes dagon)
-Poor level scaling and balancing
(praise meridia)
-Anti-climactic conclusions to most major quest lines
(praise azura)
-Traveling by foot offers almost no rewards or excitement other than sight seeing.
(praise clavicules vile)
-AI is almost just as bad as it's always been throughout Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas
(praise hermaus mora)
-Under developed follower system.
(praise talos ... oups ... I m out of daedra I think)


ok unless you feel like suggesting solutions you shouldnt complain
peoples always complains, that s the easy part

I did a big list of suggestion for game balance in the bug report

most characters made a hugue impression on me. I got trouble remembering morrowind except the mage guild. caius got recalled right away
in skyrim I even remember some bandits (*the pale lady* quest)
and even random corpses I find

(Nothing you do in the world seems to matter or have any noticeable impact)
yeah sure
dark brotherhood is after me after I desecrated a shrine to namira
thalmor are sending agents after me after I accompanied one of their patrol and took the gear of one of their fallen after a bad encounter for them

(Repetitive content throughout the world)
yes indeed, each dungeon is different. each quest is different. so in the end they are all the same. they are *different* which is exactly the same thing
how could bethesda do this to me

and I ve been doing the collect cabages quest for the 1000th time and didn t even gain a level
how much xp does it give me
why each time I complete the quest by selling a cabbage, he gives me another quest for another cabbage
bethesda are just a bunch of daedra worshiper that pray the gigh demon lord of cabbage-plane
where countless of carrot and leek sentient being throw cabbages and potatoes at you

(Anti-climactic conclusions to most major quest lines)

I m trying hard to understand

anticlimatic is what you did in tribunal (morrowind expansion)
where you killed your wife
or in the morrowind main quest where you kill your best friend while obeying your murderer from a past life

the only quests that have issues are the dark side quests that like a good side version to oppose them
because players dont like unfinished entries creeping up their logbook

other than that, what is anticlimatic. be specific.
and how many dungeons and quests did you do
if you just stuck to the main quest and blindly joined the stormcloack, of course it will be anticlimatic
but that s just you being dumb and not investigating
you should question everything

(Traveling by foot offers almost no rewards or excitement other than sight seeing)
soooo ... you are NOT an alchemist
I had figured you out for NOT BEING a mage

and clearly you didnt visit the north pole

and how exactly do you get to unvisuted dungeons anyway

(AI is almost just as bad as it's always been throughout Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas)

actually I got swarmed by falmer, so it s improved
it s balanced that need improving

(Under developed follower system)

well, not that bad, beat diablo 2
but yes this could use serious improvement
starting by not gluing their starting equipment on
and letting them learn spells if I give them spell book
letting us pay for their training
maybe have a say on their perks choice

(I was having a lot of fun with the game until around level 30 at around 50 hours...)

what difficulty

( do enjoy the game but I can't help but feel Bethesda learned absolutely nothing between the release of Oblivion and the release of Skyrim.)

I wouldnt say that
it work better on older system
dungeons are more massive
cities are more immersive
best mage guild ever
best fighter guild ever
best thieves guild ever
nice civil war
amazing dungeons
memorable characters

....

now if they fix the ballance using my suggestions, you lll have a crazy game that make diablo I, II, III look like apple pie

(I've never known Beth to cave and listen to players--correct me if I'm wrong)
really, a lot of what they put in skyrim come from looking at both complains from peoples, but especially attempt by modders to fix them.

skyrim = best off morrowind + onlivion + all expansions and mods

first thing noticeable was much improved females. actually got dress that show cleavage, cute faces (not all), separated old age and young age into separate races

then there are the crazy dungeons

there was a clear effort at creating living cities, even if they are smaller than expected, not all taverns got bards, and there are no circus peoples, dancers and so on.

I do love butting into M'aiq and the wandering bard all the time

the houses are definitively better, but they underused those dynamic bookshelves and weapon stands and maniquins.
proodpire could have space for a lot of decorating on the walls
and less static bookshelves (more active ones)

then there is the crafting, many modders and players asked for it.
only mmorpg offer that sort of things usually.
but this time arround they are close to runescape level of support
and they can expand with patches
(I guess they needed to asses the gameplay balance first)

thanks to crafting, all gear can eventually be equivalent in stats.
you are no longer forced to dress as a demonic figure if you hate it.
you can wear fur armor and look like conan if that s your style

how many times did players asked for that

myself, my biggest complaint is lack of skaal villages, sailing, whaling, whales, giant sharks, giant octopus, dreught, underwater cities, mermaids, etc...
with a nice sea, that would be nice

and .... well now they got 650 million $
before they didn't

(Judging by their recently released games (between 2000-present), it seems they really haven't at all, IMO. The games are still really good in general. )

what about being specific. your comment is worthless. you could as well say there is a stain on todd's shirt when he drink too much cofee. so what ...

(Spell graphics? Much better.)

amazing

(The price is, of course, the games are getting progressively simpler and simpler as more and more features from previous games get cut, as Bethesda often takes the approach of "axe it so we don't have to fix it." And Bethesda often turns a deaf ear to restoring features from previous games that they cut. )

I disagree. they added far more (crafting, companions, perks, new spells mechanics with physics effects) than they removed !!!
I don t even mention wildlife and hunting


pretty sure I ve seen more complicated in skyrim.

Correlation does not imply causation. Consoles not being known for in-depth RPGs doesn't necessarily mean that consoles cannot support in-depth RPGs. The problem exists in the game companies' perceptions of the console demographic, jumping to the conclusion that a D&D-style numbergenerator RPG (which in my opinion is no deeper than Skyrim; depth isn't all about numbers) would sell poorly to the console audience, which unfortunately leads to them supposedly developing shallower games. I can definitely see the truth in that in regards to most gaming genres (console shooters are always extremely shallow) but with RPGs it depends.
Disc size is a problem. I never argued that the technological limitations of consoles aren't holding back what games could be. Personally, I wish Skyrim had a 64-bit executable and DX11 support. However, does the limitation of a disc really limit the supposed depth of the game? The D&D rulebook (whichever version you happen to prefer) probably only amounts to several kilobytes of data (if even that). It's all about how the developer chooses to design their game. With Skyrim, Bethesda strayed from the statistics and numbers in preference of adding depth to the world itself.

An example of this is the removal of the speech pie chart minigame and instead replacing it with various levels of disposition that NPCs have towards you. This disposition changes when you do quests to help out that NPC. They also added speech skillchecks to various dialogue branches, focusing on making the skill something that comes into play during pre-written dialogue with NPCs rather than a pie chart where different options get different pre-written responses with no depth (god I hated the pie chart speech minigame).

Another example would be the removal of Birthsigns from character creation and replacing them with Standing Stones. They removed the spreadsheet depth and instead spreaded it into the game world. They also removed various number bonuses that only affected other number bonuses from character creation and replaced them with skill trees that, in addition to modifying numerical traits, add tangible in-world effects that are still simulated through numbers but aren't tied to skills directly (e.g. the Sneak roll that allows the character to silently advance forward in fast, short bursts; your detection chances are still calculated numerically but this is a full mechanic in itself that is separate from the detection values given by other factors). I know I'm being pretty unclear here, but I'm compare it to D&D (again): say you run into an enemy. You want to sneak past them. In traditional RPG mechanics, you roll for your chances of being undetected. 1-20. That's all it is. In Skyrim, you have a variety of ways of sneaking up to this enemy, including the sneak roll. You can either sneak up to that enemy rolling off your sneak skill or roll for your chances of sneak rolling up to that enemy. Because sneak rolling is different from regular walking (it's silent while walking isn't) it gives you two choices for the same scenario that numerical stats only gives one for.

Of course, it certainly can be argued that Bethesda could have done more. I would have liked to see even more in the skill trees, and I absolutely would've liked to see more options in a lot of the quests (multiple paths instead of "do it or don't do it" being your only choice). The option to either join the Dark Brotherhood, not join the Dark Brotherhood, or eliminate the Dark Brotherhood was good. I liked that it gave the option to start a quest to eliminate them. Now, if only that questline had the same depth as joining them did, and if they had an option like that for every faction. That would be incredible, but unfortunately it's also rather unfeasible.

It actually was kind of uninformed. I was under the belief that Morrowind was released multiplatform on the same date. Apparently the console version came out about a month later. So apology accepted, and I apologize to you as well.

Well there are a myriad of reasons not to read the forums regularly (trolls, baseless hate, etc.). But honestly, would you really feel the need to even listen to calm, well-reasoned critical feedback if your game was this successful? Gamers speak with their wallets, bottom line, and the common majority seems very happy with the status quo, unfortunately.

Listening to feedback is important, yes. But in many ways It's refreshing to see a company that sticks to it's guns and refuses to cater to everyone who whines.

Many game series that I love are being ruined because the Developers are trying to cater to people rather than sticking to their initial plans. A lot of single player game series that I love are being ruined because of rubbish multiplayer modes thrown in because people wanted them. I'm honestly quite glad that Bethesda aren't listening to people when it comes to things like this.

Stop trying to relate Bethesda's RPG's with Bioware rpg's. If you want story and strong characters, go play bioware rpgs, they specialize in that.

The elder scrolls franchise has always been about massive open world to explore, lots of dungeon delving, roleplaying, character development, different factions etc.

And dev's at bethesda does value their customers, they have removed almost everything ppl complained about Oblivion.
Not all enemies lvl with you anylonger, you can no longer fast travel to cities before you actually find them, carriges are back, werewolves etc are just to name a few

On the other hand they also removed a lot of things people weren't complaining about from Morrowind and Oblivion...

They make games that they want to play and that they would enjoy. So if it's good enough for them, it's good enough.

So no, I don't think they pay much attention to fan criticism and feedback.

Not many people complain, its just concentrated on here because pissed off people want a game made their way

I hope they listen to those of us that want added depth and a deeper feature set.

Thing is they're fanbase is also much larger now.

your avi isawesome

I think you'd have to be more specific if you're making a genuine contructive criticism.

-this-

Give us back our old spells and spell creation. We had much more options and variety in Morrowind and Oblivion than in this joke of a magic system, sure we got pretty spell effects but pretty does not matter, gameplay and options matter: I like to roleplay a mage who threw the scientific and arcane nature of using spell creation I was able to manipulate the magical arts to what I want it to be.

We need better NPC interactions, they repeat the same thing over and over again like they are stuck in a loop.
We need more and longer faction quest, they are pathetically short. Also some consequences on the world with some not all faction would be nice addition.

We need a retooled attribute system maybe with general perks added, an example is strength 50 carry 35 extra pounds, intelligence 65 get 8 attribute points, willpower increase magic regeneration and so on.

We need more weapon variety if only for roleplaying reasons as it added more overall options and choice to this game, it would be a plus if werapons like the spear, cross bow, and throwing stars and so on felt unique and different.

I have listed these several times over multiple discussions. These things added to the game and it was deeper and far more rewarding, this game is a pretty hollowed out shell of what the series once was.

Personally I would love to see Bethesda give up on the writing, quests, choices and outcomes and souley work on the world, NPCs, enemies. Give all the jobs before mentioned to Obsidian, why.... Fallout NV, that's why. Bethesda knows how to do an open world/ sandbox game but severly lack in any creative thoughts or creative writing, I don't care what hardcoe TES fans have to say, skyrim was dull and I feel very bad for the fans who waited soo long for it, and I truly believe that if Beth stepped back from the story telling we would have gotten a far more immersive game, not just "hey I don't fight anymore cause I dropped my shield In a cave, wanna get it for me?"
Um, no I do t want to get your stupid [censored]i g shield, [censored] off [censored] head.
What if when I did go get the before mentioned dike heads shield, but when I get to the cave he said it was in was actually inhabited by a group of cannibals who just tricked you Into their bellies,
See, now how hard was that, I took your lame ass quest and gave it some meat for those bones. This is how I generally look at quests in skyrim, bones and no meat, nothing to grab onto you.
Oh well, back to New Vegas, a REAL RP FREAKN G !!!!
(I dont care if you think I'm wrong, if you do your a loser with a stupid opinion* puts fingers in ears, la la la la la"

What i feel is that Bethesda said on their "Behind the wall: Making of Skyrim" is not close to what they delivered.. Pretty good though anyway.. Could have been alot better

That's because they've fallen for the hype and don't know what the TES franchise is supposed to be about. They're the same people who didn't bother playing Morrowind because it looked like a complicated RPG, yet flocked to Skyrim because it was so strikingly similar to all the action-adventures they love. Skyrim is a good game, just not a good TES game. That's if you can look past all the bugs and glitches, anyway..

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1317665-unofficial-buglist/ -- for those who think we're clearly making all them up.