Does Bethesda not value critism or fan feedback at all? : V - Skyrim

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:36 pm

Yeah well, that's just like your opinion, man.

i guess what you say is also your opinion...
in fact everything said on this forum is someone's opinion...
that's what the forum's for...or not?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:33 am

Yeah well, that's just like your opinion, man.

And opinions are what makes games, or breaks them...

It doesn't matter if 75% say it is great, when 25% say it is just broken... Few people like to gamble with hard earned money. When they can just wait for a few months, and get it 50% off, or more, or borrow it, or get it free, with hope that it is less broken when they get it at a discount.

Even the ones who like it, if you read the reviews, say the same things as those who say it is broken... But they attempt to say, "Just wait, it will be better..." Though that is not actually convincing enough, it just flags them as a compassionate fan-boy, with a weighted-opinion.

Not to mention the massive videos online, where you can see the "Real issues" first hand. That is FACT, not OPINION. The facts are... The game is broken, incomplete, a risk to purchase, unfriendly to the PC user, limited as a console game, and performs below expectations. Opinions are, "I don't like it", "The game is easy", "The game is not fun"... Which are still supported by the facts, but a relatable opinion to the majority.

The sad part is... Those who actually enjoy it, overlooking the flaws or not caring about the issues, are not speaking-up. (That is another poor marketing design flaw. I am not sure what genius directs users to a self-promoted forum, for posting issues/problems, yet fails to ask those who are not having issues, to also come. Failure of moderators and forum setup there, as well. Obviously, they just want the initial cash-cow spike from pre-known sales of the game. Sell it as fast as possible, take the money, and run. Shark-marketing, like infomercials use. Then use the money to spam-market hype, for the final blow, before they walk away and leave the majority of work to the modders, who will make all the things used for the next version of the game.)

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:43 am

@ JD_Mortal

"The sad part is... Those who actually enjoy it, overlooking the flaws or not caring about the issues, are not speaking-up. (That is another poor marketing design flaw. I am not sure what genius directs users to a self-promoted forum, for posting issues/problems, yet fails to ask those who are not having issues, to also come. Failure of moderators and forum setup there, as well."

Are you going to blame Bethesda for who does or does not avail of the forums?
That right there shows clearly how unbalanced your point of view and criticisms are.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:37 pm

The game's out for not even 2 months, give them a [censored] break or patch it yourself.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:15 am

From Fallout 3 I learned that Bethesda may pick one major complaint and change it for the better, but at the expense of everything else. Thus was born Broken Steel.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:25 pm

Customers buy Bethesda games (in truck loads by the way)....customers = money.
Bethesda make games most of their customers enjoy.
Sounds like you dont enjoy these games...so why bother complain about them.

They don't make games their consumers enjoy. They make games that will attract more consumers. Comparing Morrowind to Skyrim is like comparing Call of Duty to Battlefield -- both are amazing, but also very, very different. Bethesda used to have a different set of consumers, ones which loved the epic games Bethesda used to create.. but no longer, as Bethesda ditched them for more money and new consumers. Consumers who don't like games like Morrowind. Consumers who don't like having to think.

Like I said, they're sellouts. They don't listen to their consumers. They just grab new ones with each new game. You have to realize that the people complaining about Skyrim aren't actually complaining about Skyrim. They're complaining about the direction Bethesda is going in with TES. It's a great game, sure, but it doesn't feel like a TES game, and that's the problem we have. You can say all you want about how we're just whining and throwing a fit because we can't have our way, but imagine if the next Call of Duty had swords and magic, or the next Starcraft was an FPS -- they'd be amazing games, I'm sure.. but the developers would essentially be taking a massive dump on the people who were loyal to those franchises, and expected them to stick with the same genre and feel that they fell in love with.

The game's out for not even 2 months, give them a [censored] break or patch it yourself.

You don't buy a car so you can fix it yourself. You don't order a pizza so you can cook it yourself. You don't hire a contractor so you can build something yourself.

We paid $60 for a game that we expect to work, which is what we should expect as consumers. There are plenty of people out there who are actively addressing the problems many of us are having, but that isn't their job. It's up to Bethesda to fix their games, and in a timely manner. Considering many of the bugs and glitches we are seeing in Skyrim have also occurred in Fallout 3 and Oblivion, even 2 months after the release of Skyrims is far too long to be waiting.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:18 pm

The problem with that is...

1. Those calm enough to "construct criticism", are not having real issues... (Thus, you are "Fixing" to the minority, not the majority.)
2. Unconstructive criticism, is what others relate to, in the majority... Those are issues which are so bad, that they over-power rational thought, and are driven by emotion. Those are the people who run around telling everyone about the bad issues, online and offline, and destroy companies in the process, when ignored... (The majority.)

Everything you have to say after these two points doesn't really matter because of how ignorant they are. You just said we, as a community, are either too immature or stupid to properly articulate our issues without resorting to flaming, generalizing or other infantile attacks. That, or we just don't have a serious problem.

Perhaps YOU can't verbalize when you're upset, but I can, and I know others can as well. Having self control is not difficult, especially in a text format. The ability to put things into perspective doesn't mean someone isn't having serious issues- it means they know said issues aren't more important than life itself and acting like an idiot isn't going to solve them.

Your post is a perfect example of how valid points can be completely lost once the poster makes an ignorant, generalized statement. If you want Bethesda, the community, or anyone in general to hear your real point, it's best to articulate it with facts and distinct examples without being condescending to your audience. Otherwise, it gets ignored, or picked apart, just like this.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:58 pm

@ JD_Mortal

"The sad part is... Those who actually enjoy it, overlooking the flaws or not caring about the issues, are not speaking-up. (That is another poor marketing design flaw. I am not sure what genius directs users to a self-promoted forum, for posting issues/problems, yet fails to ask those who are not having issues, to also come. Failure of moderators and forum setup there, as well."

Are you going to blame Bethesda for who does or does not avail of the forums?
That right there shows clearly how unbalanced your point of view and criticisms are.

You are right, I should blame the users... They should just svck-it-up and deal with it... I believe that is what you are suggesting.
What the hell does, "my point of view, and criticisms" have to do with balance? One does not balance the other, they are one in the same. The only thing I did wrong was trust them, purchase the game, and expect it to work once purchased.

Fix it... I did... I do... I will... What I can... But every hour I spend fixing it, is another dollar I loose in the initial investment. You shouldn't have to "Fix" a new car when you buy it, just to get it to run, stay running, and continue to run until you get it home.

Main quest, was broke on patch 1.0, 1.1, 1.1x, 1.2, 1.3, 1.3x... Not to mention most of the other side-quests, the inventory, the GUI, the physics, the game-dynamics, the graphics, the shadows, the lights, the players, the animations, the, well... whole game.

I've had Steam force-fed to me, but I got over that, once I figured out how to disable it from dominating my computer and causing the game to crash, adding to the issues. (Besides, for another $60 I got like 20 other games, including fallout-vegas, "again"... Portal-series, half-life series, STALKER series, and other junk... junk that works... for less than top-dollar... Which MODS made BETTER. This game, needs MODS just to make it RUN, for most people. Run where it is playable, close to what we expected. Reducing quality does NOT make it run any better, and makes it run worse, in most instances.)

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:35 pm

God! How many of these threads get made each day!? Why can't the moderators just make a Complaint mega thread?

That's a great idea to have in mind, actually.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:54 pm

Its only fair to compare it to previous TES games? not even as the number of times you're told Skyrim is a new game and each TES game stands on its own >_>

Is one so quick to forget that every TES game is first called The Elder Scrolls? that each game takes place in the same universe? that each games story wouldn't be without the events of the past games? that aside from technological advancements the mechanics of the game albiet trimmed even more so than the last STILL follow the same rules and run in smilar gameplay?

mehShingouki makes a good points

shingouki, on 28 December 2011 - 09:45 AM, said:

I was speaking to a friend about this last night. I was asking him for his advice on how we modders can improve the game along with his thoughts about the game as a whole.

He responded that he felt that Bethesda really didn't want to make a game for the fans of the game to begin with, because they knew we(the fans) would buy it anyway, so they
made the game aimed towards people who wouldn't normally buy the game. The market he felt they were trying to tap into is the whole Call of Duty player market, and were doing
so by:

A - Removing all of the micromanagement elements (Str, Agi, Dex, Def, along with merging armor choices)
B - Removing weapon choice or variation (newer weapons/armor are always better similar to Call of Duty)
C - Adding a perk system in place of RPG elements(also like CoD), etc.

Then they focused on making the game visually impressive(pretty magic/pretty landscapes), and didn't stress improving the elements that have been problematic with the series but are
core to the gameplay, ie: Melee Combat Gameplay. Melee combat's main focus for improvement seems to be the whole visual element: Gory Decapitations, constant fancy kills, etc. But
in the end you're still just flailing around a cardboard sword and shield. Besides, what CoD player is going to use sword and shield anyway? Long range needs to be good! Thus magic is
good, looks good, and plays good.

What he came to the conclusion about it was that Beth didn't really want to make an RPG to begin with, but more of a game for casuals since the RPGers would definitely buy the game. So
instead of a true RPG you get an Action Game wrapped in the illusion of an RPG.

I don't agree on the COD emphasis as it isn't their fault, (the players) I do agree that Beth somehow believes that COD mechanics are what made the mass of players enjoy COD, or that COD players can't appreciate a Good RPG. as stated before, they do listen to critic, its how they go about addressing it that needs work. as you've no doub't heard in your time here people have a hard time understanding why they cut things out instead of improving them. you'd think the several years worth of suggestions and idea compilations in the General discussion forum would have gotten a good listening to, but instead things where just outright slain.

I want to believe that they are going to blindside us with some kick ass DLC that dont just add new regions but alter existening gameplay mechanics and add additional from what hasn't been present. you know like what they did with Bloodmoon and Tribunal and not so much with Shivering isle.

I don't understand the mentality that there is something wrong with having an issue with the game one paid for, or "negetive posts" I mean, do you think things change if people endlessly cheer and Hurrah beth? what is with this very insignificant Dichotomy of "Negetive"Posititive" you do realize aspects of Negetive are what keep you alive right? and like wise Positive can kill you? since when is either inherently good or bad? and why should you care how others feel about the game? the sooner that mentality kicks the bucket the sooner this petty "negetive/positve" garbage can go away and peeps stop blowing it up to what it isn't. Just make a thread you want to discuss about the game if you don't like the current selection of threads.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:57 pm

Everything you have to say after these two points doesn't really matter because of how ignorant they are. You just said we, as a community, are either too immature or stupid to properly articulate our issues without resorting to flaming, generalizing or other infantile attacks. That, or we just don't have a serious problem. Perhaps YOU can't verbalize when you're upset, but I can, and I know others can as well. Having self control is not difficult, especially in a text format. The ability to put things into perspective doesn't mean someone isn't having serious issues- it means they know said issues aren't more important than life itself and acting like an idiot isn't going to solve them. Your post is a perfect example of how valid points can be completely lost once the poster makes an ignorant, generalized statement. If you want Bethesda, the community, or anyone in general to hear your real point, it's best to articulate it with facts and distinct examples without being condescending to your audience. Otherwise, it gets ignored, or picked apart, just like this.

And your "opinion"... is exactly what adds to the death of games like this.

I prefer well-though-out criticism, but reality hardly mirrors anyone's desires. I simply pointed out the reality of what actually happens, and what is actually reflected, by majority. I didn't create the majority, they created themselves. Being "constructive" had nothing to do with having issues, is what I was pointing out. Only limiting yourself to "constructive criticism", which is an opinion by the way, is avoiding the reality, and catering to the minority of input. Those constructing have already submitted, as in, accepted the issues... Those, spouting-off, have powerful voices that echo beyond the walls of the forum. Beyond the voices of those constructing...

That is not MY opinion, that is a fact. If you hate me for it... then you are obviously not smart enough to understand it. ("If I said that was a tedious question, would you be smart enough to understand what that meant? Probably not.") Best line in the game!

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:42 pm

That's a great idea to have in mind, actually.

Yes, because OBVIOUSLY, I am wrong... (Taking note of the daily observations, opinions, and postings of others. lol...)

A thread for every issue...

They stop, when they are no longer issues... Or the posters give up, or people stop buying the game... Leaving behind only those without issues.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:37 pm

thank god they ignore most of it otherwise ES would svck,

This...

They value it. They soar in sales and acclaim for a reason. And that's by not listening to opinions like yours.

...this...

I think they in general listen to complaints, but tend to ignore all those (these) whiners.

... and this...

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:50 pm

I can think of a lot of things, actually, that Bethesda did in response to players complaints/feedback.

People complained how stupid it was at the end of FO3 for their Lone Wanderer to end up dying when Fawkes, Charon, or that one Mr. Handy companion robot who's name I can never remember was standing right beside you. You know, the supermutant who is immune to radiation, the ghoul that is healed by radiation, or the robot that can ignore the radiation couldn't push those buttons at the end of it all. Well, from what was said on the forums by the devs during the development of the game, the Lone Wanderer was supposed to be exactly that; the Lone Wanderer. There weren't supposed to be any permanent companions. But people complained to the point that Beth added the companion option, and, due to the time constraint I guess, couldn't fix how it screwed up the ending. Then due to all the complaining on the forums they added Broken Steel. For me, that broke the game; I liked the story arc of the original game and the Alpha/Omega symmetry of the definite end. A lot of people wanted to continue after the end.

They did it a lot with the ES as well. People complained that Morrowind was no challenge for their high level characters. So Tribunal happened and people found out that the enemies were stronger, and they leveled up their high level characters higher, and complained there was no challenge. So Bloodmoon happened, and higher level characters got killed a lot, so people leveled up their higher level character even more and went looking for the level 99 werewolf for a challenge, and people complained there was no challenge for their super uber leet demigods. Oh, there were a lot of complaints about no horses in all three games. So Oblivion happened, and Beth tried to take care of the "my character has no challenges in the game" with the level scaling. [I'm not saying there were no issues with the level scaling, but they did do it in response to people's complaints.] There were horses in the game.

So now there is Skyrim. The level scaling is better than Oblivion; I haven't been attacked by any bandits or marauders wearing daedric armor using daedric weapons. The horses are a little better than Oblivion. There are children in the game, running through the streets and playing. You can hire wagons to travel. There are things that could be improved, of course. There are issues in the game. But I really can't say that Bethesda ignored what people wanted. They didn't, thank the Divines, listen to every suggestion on the forums, but they did listen.

Talaran if you ever stop posting, I will tranform into a panda and become sad.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:27 pm

@ JD_Mortal

"What the hell does, "my point of view, and criticisms" have to do with balance? One does not balance the other, they are one in the same."

yes, one and the same unbalance...so clearly unbalanced I cannot respond to them.
But, hey...this forum is for all of us.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:02 am

I can think of a lot of things, actually, that Bethesda did in response to players complaints/feedback.

People complained how stupid it was at the end of FO3 for their Lone Wanderer to end up dying when Fawkes, Charon, or that one Mr. Handy companion robot who's name I can never remember was standing right beside you. You know, the supermutant who is immune to radiation, the ghoul that is healed by radiation, or the robot that can ignore the radiation couldn't push those buttons at the end of it all. Well, from what was said on the forums by the devs during the development of the game, the Lone Wanderer was supposed to be exactly that; the Lone Wanderer. There weren't supposed to be any permanent companions. But people complained to the point that Beth added the companion option, and, due to the time constraint I guess, couldn't fix how it screwed up the ending. Then due to all the complaining on the forums they added Broken Steel. For me, that broke the game; I liked the story arc of the original game and the Alpha/Omega symmetry of the definite end. A lot of people wanted to continue after the end.

They did it a lot with the ES as well. People complained that Morrowind was no challenge for their high level characters. So Tribunal happened and people found out that the enemies were stronger, and they leveled up their high level characters higher, and complained there was no challenge. So Bloodmoon happened, and higher level characters got killed a lot, so people leveled up their higher level character even more and went looking for the level 99 werewolf for a challenge, and people complained there was no challenge for their super uber leet demigods. Oh, there were a lot of complaints about no horses in all three games. So Oblivion happened, and Beth tried to take care of the "my character has no challenges in the game" with the level scaling. [I'm not saying there were no issues with the level scaling, but they did do it in response to people's complaints.] There were horses in the game.

So now there is Skyrim. The level scaling is better than Oblivion; I haven't been attacked by any bandits or marauders wearing daedric armor using daedric weapons. The horses are a little better than Oblivion. There are children in the game, running through the streets and playing. You can hire wagons to travel. There are things that could be improved, of course. There are issues in the game. But I really can't say that Bethesda ignored what people wanted. They didn't, thank the Divines, listen to every suggestion on the forums, but they did listen.

You list a few things, but the problems go on and on. You also don't mention that fact that Bethesda loves to remove elements that people actually enjoy, and instead add elements that don't make sense, or do make sense, but are added half-assedly. How many people complained that Oblivion was nothing at all like Morrowind when it came out? How many people still complain about that? And yet we have Skyrim, which is still nothing at all like Morrowind, and yet worse than Oblivion in many aspects. it's a great game, but it's not a TES game. It's not the game people were asking for, but a game aimed at bringing in new people. Bethesda would rather "buy" a new audience than appease the old -- the very people who made Bethesda what they are today.

They added children, but only for a few races and usually only as eye candy.
They added marriage, but only the ability to marry, a few factions, and some lines of dialogue.
They removed spell making and added a new system that doesn't scale, lacks variety, and becomes very old, very fast.
They added new quest mechanics, where quest objectives are automatically added to our journal, regardless of our input, and offer no detailed information -- only a marker and literal directions. Did they forget that they were making an RPG, or that their fans absolutely love any and all information they're given? Or, better yet, information they need to seek out?
They added map markers that show us what's around us before we've actually gotten the chance to see it ourselves. Why give us Indiana Jones when "Google Skyrim" is much easier to implement, right?

And it goes and on and on. They did not create the RPG their fans wanted. They created the action-adventure that would earn them more money and more fans. They've sold out.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:06 am

Beth listens to money. They couldn't care less about making a high quality game.
Get used to playing good-mediocre titles.

The days of epic games are over.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:04 pm

...So now there is Skyrim. The level scaling is better than Oblivion; I haven't been attacked by any bandits or marauders wearing daedric armor using daedric weapons. The horses are a little better than Oblivion. There are children in the game, running through the streets and playing. You can hire wagons to travel. There are things that could be improved, of course. There are issues in the game. But I really can't say that Bethesda ignored what people wanted. They didn't, thank the Divines, listen to every suggestion on the forums, but they did listen.

But there are bandits in Glass armor and Mercenaries in Ebony :blush:

so yes it is a little better.

But I really do agree with this post. I think Bethesda listens, but it is a very good thing that they don't build the game from forum comments. They game would be a complete mess then.

As far as the Original Post goes. Many of those post are in the category of "make it better". Like improve story lines, improve NPCs, improve gameplay.

I'm guessing that they understand that the fan base would like them to improve stuff, vs making things worse. The trick is that in a game like this you don't really know if a change is going to be an improvement or not unless you invest alot of time and effort and look at the end product.

As far the comment that Skyrim is better than t the previous game (ie Oblivion or Fallout 3 depending on how you count them) for me that is still questionable. I see improvements over the previous games and I also see some drawbacks. But I have not played Skyrim nearly enough to form a complete judgement yet. I suspect it will be all all the similar games Bethesda does - some improvements and some not so good things.

But I do agree that TES VI should improve stuff. Hopefully Bethesda will get that message

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:26 pm

They're sellouts. TES was a niche genre, one which many people absolutely loved, and now Bethesda is changing everything just to make more money. If you had said, 10 years ago, that a TES game would have forced 3rd-person kill animations and a magic compass, people would have called you insane.

They don't listen to their customers. They listen to money, and if turning TES into something entirely different means making more money, they're going to do it. Unfortunately, that also means ignoring a large amount of bugs. Why would they bother fixing them when they can rely on us to do it while they make another game?

That "niche appeal" of yours was the result of technological limitations that prevented them from making the game they had in mind from the start. With each console generation they've been getting closer and closer to what they originally wanted to make.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:44 pm

I am curious. Skyrim is a great game, not disputing that but it seems like nearly everything fan's complained about in regards to Oblivion is still ever present in Skyrim... You would think this may have been a good opportunity to improve on certain weaknesses and show fans you're actually evolving rather then putting a shiny new skin on Oblivion and changing the setting.

-Story is still weak
-Most characters are forgettable
-Modders are fixing bugs and making balancing tweaks at a much faster pace and more successful then any official patches.
-Nothing you do in the world seems to matter or have any noticeable impact including completing major quest lines; making the world seem very dull and lifeless and rarely does anyone or the world react to what you have done.
-Repetitive content throughout the world. Beyond level 30 I feel as if I am doing the same things over and over again. "Go here, kill some draugr, go here, kill some bandits... oh look a dragon!"
-Poor level scaling and balancing
-Anti-climactic conclusions to most major quest lines
-Traveling by foot offers almost no rewards or excitement other than sight seeing.
-AI is almost just as bad as it's always been throughout Oblivion, Fallout 3 and New Vegas
-Under developed follower system.

Seriously these are pretty much the same complaints rampant in Oblivion; is Bethesda incapable of evolving or anything that could be considered innovative?

I was having a lot of fun with the game until around level 30 at around 50 hours... After that my interest started to plummet due to the reasons mentioned above

I do enjoy the game but I can't help but feel Bethesda learned absolutely nothing between the release of Oblivion and the release of Skyrim.

Skyrim is selling way better than Oblivion ever did and people across the board, are falling in love with the game.

You played some Obliv and you suddenly expect that Beth will cater to your ever whim and desire? Beth is never going to meet your unrealistic expectations. This is the game they built. This is the vision they had. And this is the product they released after putting as much time and effort into their game as they could.

And it doesn't please your highness? Grow up.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:33 am

They are great at building the world overall and building everything within the world. But giving the world life/depth/balance/growth is something they need to work on. Yes the world itself is sweet in design and cool to explore, but it feels very static, bland and redundant the longer you play. As I said I was having great fun until around level 30, exploring, doing side quests, doing major quest lines, but after level 30 or so all the games issues and omissions become more and more apparent. I would have love to see more time in development or more talent brought on the team that paid more attention to more of the subtle gameplay elements rather then recycling all the same flaws critisized in Fallout and Oblivion.

And it sold a lot because it IS a good game with a lot of content, plus much better marketing than Oblivion had, good reviews as well as popularity of both Elder Scrolls and the recent Fallout additions behind it. It is a better game than Oblivion by far and yes there are 100's of hours of content but most of it is bland, redundant, useless and has virtually no impact on the world around you... while traveling by foot rewards you with wolves, bears, dragons, bandits and not much else.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:47 pm

That "niche appeal" of yours was the result of technological limitations that prevented them from making the game they had in mind from the start. With each console generation they've been getting closer and closer to what they originally wanted to make.

Well your little theory fails, since two games ago this wasn't a console game...

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:58 pm

Well your little theory fails, since two games ago this wasn't a console game...

Morrowind wasn't a console game? Why was it released multiplatform for PC and Xbox then?

Also, are you implying that PC technology was what it is now back when Arena was released?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:26 am

I wish Skyrim was a bit more populated. It's a big world, but seems empty. There are trails and roads everywhere, but hardly ever anyone traveling them. Where are you, all NPC's? Just in the towns?
Hope somebody makes MODS that will fill up the world a bit.

» Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:10 pm

Morrowind wasn't a console game? Why was it released multiplatform for PC and Xbox then?

Also, are you implying that PC technology was what it is now back when Arena was released?

In terms of design ?