No, being able to do all that stuff is intentional. Some people may want to do all that stuff. While I wouldn't mind things like skill requirements for advancements within guilds, I'm glad TES games don't restrict you from doing things. Let me decide what my character would or wouldn't do, not the developers putting some arbitrary restrictions on it.

Working as intended.



What restrictions are you talking about? Your character shouldn't be restricted. That's what makes TES better than other RPG's, the fact that I'm not restricted to arbitrary classes. I don't want to play pure mages, warriors, or thieves, because I don't feel those restrictions make sense. In the real world, it doesn't matter what my "class" is, it matters what my talents are. Just because my talents are in one area doesn't mean I can't attempt to try different things. TES allows this to happen, and is a much superior RPG for it.



When Obsidian makes a game the caliber of Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim, then they will get the same credit. As it is, they haven't. So I have no credit to give to Obsidian.

The teaming masses that have flocked to this series are blind to these games bugs and issues. Most people will play if about an average RPGs time length Mets say fifty to a hundred hours and be done with it and never pick it up again until the next expansion or DLC roles around, these kind of people are satisfied with what they have because they will just play it and toss it aside after the next great game comes out. People such as myself, Merari, Xarnac the Conqueror, Chunkyman, Mk Omega, Seti 18 and several others have played these games for hundreds to thousands if hours for each iteration and we want the game at least playable in that time without things completely breaking. We acknowledge these bugs because we want things properly fixed so we can enjoy this game our favorite game series without worry of dealing with game breakers, in saying all of this yes, I think Skyrim is getting a lot of credit from a lot of people that do not know this series like the ones who have played this game far more than any other.

I'd agree with this. People have a tendency to see only the flaws in Skyrim, and overlook the (IMO much more plentiful) successes, beauties and general strengths in the game. This isn't to say that you should just ignore bugs and the like. But don't act as if Skyrim is the worst game on the Earth - as many on this forum will say, we think it's one of the best!

I'd agree with this. People have a tendency to see only the flaws in Skyrim, and overlook the (IMO much more plentiful) successes, beauties and general strengths in the game. This isn't to say that you should just ignore bugs and the like. But don't act as if Skyrim is the worst game on the Earth - as many on this forum will say, we think it's one of the best!

People have a tendency to see only the flaws in apples, and overlook the (IMO much more plentiful) successes, beauties and general strengths in an apple. This isn't to say that you should just ignore bugs and the like. But don't act as if apples are the worst fruit on the Earth - as many on this forum will say, we think it's one of the best!

Since my name was mentioned let me respond.

I don't know what a hardcoe Rpg(er) is I've played dozens of games over the years that are Hours sink for me, from the Homeworld series 1-2, Total annihilation, Sots, GTA series, Freelancer, X3, TES etc etc. THESE are good games, and they for me did well with what they did having me come back to them over and over collectively spending Tens of thousands of hours over the course of 15 years or so. and that's all the Credentials i care to submit since I'm not interested in getting bombed by PMs .

I don't like the premise of this thread, At all. I think its utterly inane to say Beth doesn't get enough credit when every week there is a "Thank you Beth" thread or the flocks of folk who say thank consistently to make a point rather than be genuine, I don't think they are doing it for themselves, I think because of this stink that was raised about "complainers" have peeps trying to score points or some sillyness along those lines and I'm personally ashamed to see some pre oblivion folks doing the same, even though they've been here for YEARS and have given continued support Not just for the TES series, but for the Fallout series as well.

and I won't even get on the stark contrast to "complainer" threads, not what the thread is about.

there seems to be a prevailing thought that you can only support someone by babying them, as if Bethesda, a collection of folks doing this -as a business- can't handle even slightest remark of critic/Criticisms/complaint/moaning/whining as if suddenly they'll collapse under the pressure and quit making games indefinitely. Improvements are not made by babying or saying GG, that is when you Like what you got and you want it to stay like that fullstop. (now who's the one resistant to change?) so if you're going around telling people who want something to change, to "stow it" or "this isn't the game for you" then you're being selfish, to them AND bethesda, you're costing Bethesda Satisfied Costumers and effectively wanting them to make the game for you, see how all those asinine statements you used against dissenters work on you now?

it has reached a point (well long ago) that if you have anything perceived to be "negative" about Skyrim you need to be flayed. the dissent or whatever you make of it has never been as bad as people claim it to be, and for some reason if you're a participant you're doing it for the status quot, to "complain just to complain" none of your reasoning are valid, and no matter how many times you put your disclaimer that you're not a "hater" you're still nuked. and yet at any point you simply say "skyrim is good" a hear hear is follows immediately after, no reasons, no details, nothing.

So With all the acclaim, accolades, praises and Hype beth got, the Millions of coin stuffed in the coffers and the continued cementation of the Bethesda and TES name into the gaming industry (every subsequent RPG released this year and last are compared to skyrim...always) what cognitive process thought it right to make the statement that they don't think Beth gets enough credit?

as I said earlier in this thread, your opinion is noted, the forums are often stated to be the minority (for some reason) and doesn't apply to the "true" gaming base. so why do you care?

I agree that Skyrim's biggest flaw is the lack of depth in the guilds but regarding your Morrowind comments you need to take off your nostagia goggles. The reason why it took you 500 hours to become bored with the game is due to its poor game mechanics. You start out moving like a turtle, the map is useless, the journal is horrible, just to name a few things.

On my most recent character, I used as many exploits as I could. I leveled up to 81 with the Oghma Infinium. I used the Fortify Restoration glitch to become an immortal who kills everything with one punch, with infinite magicka and stamina and who achieved 100% Chameleon when in stealth mode. I also played on the lowest difficulty. Combine that with the fact that this was my sixth character and I knew where everything in the game was, it took me about 70 hours to achieve roughly 95% completion. I didn't join the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood, taking the alternate "good" route on the latter, and I also didn't complete one misc. quest for the Thalmor and one side-quest in Riften because I didn't want an army of clones outside of Whiterun. But still, that type of length just isn't seen in very many non-Bethesda games. It's impressive.

I did not mean to be accusatory of you I was using the first line as a generalization nothing more.

I was referring to "pointing the finger" because there is a lot of those on here that do that for blindly defending something in this game that is obviously flawed or something like that.

I'd never deny any to those things. Which is also why it took me hours to get into the game. The onyl reason why I even bothered to do so was because I didnt have anything else to play!

Fact remains there were 11 guilds in Morrowind compared to only 4 guilds in Skyrim (and all with 4-5 times as much quests as in Skyrim). I'm not saying Skyrim should have had that much, with the improvements made in character animation and dialogue it is impossible to create that much quests in the same amount of time. Nevertheless Skyrim could and should have had more guild content. At least offer as much quests in a guild as Oblivion did! Or add a lot more of those shallow guilds. Having 4 guilds with only a few quests is rediculous, it makes Skyrim look incredibly weak compared to all the TES that came before it.

I think it's a little weird someone could have not a single complaint about something even just looking at the perk tree there are just glaringly weird things about it.
Illusion tree for instance the game was suppose to be moving away from level scaling with the except of magicka use/dual overcast the entire rest of the perks is about level scaling spells. I been playing the last two titles and I have zero idea about how to even use the illusion magic in this game how are you even suppose to be able to figure out if what you are fighting is within the right level of using the spell at all.
The smith perk system is a nightmare for min/max players why in good faith would there ever be a heavy armor up the light armor side of the tree? It makes no sense none of the armor perks give a bonus for wearing the two different types if just begs you to pick one or the other and wear a full set of it. Why would anyone want to go up the light side of the tree when armor is usually for a weapon user and the best weapon is up the heavy armor perk side.
The armor skills are really redunant now that I think of it light armor has 2 perks heavy armor doesn't have, heavy armor has like 4 perks light doesn't have, and everything else is exactly the same.

Now I'm not trying to complain about that what I think is really complaint worth is the block perk tree, it's really bugged in many ways. Argonian characters can't use disarming bash, no reason for it. The perk that lets you move faster when blocking stops working. There is just a lot of broken stuff there.

Hi there Nell2ThaIzzay! How have you been doing? Great, I hope. It's good you're around.

Paying customers have earned their right to complain, but that in itself, per se, does not mean they are right in their complaints. Take allegations the product is not performing as advertised. I myself have had a somewhat smooth PC experience, but I'm affraid not all console gamers can say the same. Now, as for features, remember dynamic snow, dynamic economy? The last set of complaints deals with what one might call conceptual direction, i. e., overarching choices Todd made that, plausibly, could have gone the other way. Most forum lapidation appears to be directed at these, when, in fact, it could be argued this kind of criticism is what helps devs the most. All in all, asking for others to stop complaining is futile and pernicious. It will never work on a public forum and Im quite satisfied by that. You happen to think this or that complaint holds no water? Well then do not take the easy way out and ask such poster to leave the thread. Instead, defeat his statements on the rhetorical plane, that is, if you can. Lastly, the very fact Bethesda pays from its own pocket to maintain this forum goes to show which side of this argument it is probably betting its money on.

You never played New Vegas, or it's dlc? Who are you, that do not know your history?

Skyrim's biggest problem, for me, and the one that makes it look bad in comparison to other TES games, is the lack of guild content. In Morrowind, I've only ever completed the House Hlaalu and Fighter's Guild questlines, despite having played that game for over 150 hours. I'm just starting House Redoran for the first time right now. In Skyrim, each guild questline can be completed in >3 hours, and there's no options in which quests you can complete. I had much more fun doing Morrowind's guilds; they felt like real guilds, not just quest hubs.

Just a minor correction, you stated that each guild questline can be completed in "greater than 3 hours", which contradicts your claim of lack of guild content.

I know it was just a typo, I'm just pointing it out.

Otherwise, I would agree that the guilds aren't as interesting, at least in length, as past games. I still feel, at least College of Winterhold which is the only guild I've done, has a much more interesting questline, even if it is entirely too short.

I own Fallout: New Vegas, so yes, I've played it.

And no, it's not nearly as good as Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, or Fallout 3.

Because just like the examples you cited, along with online message board forums for video games, the customer quite simply put is not always right. People that complain to check out ladies, or any of those other examples you cited, are more often than not quite frankly acting out a very spoiled, entitlement complex where they believe they deserve to have a company cater to them, and only to them, even though the customer has no claim to such treatment. People feel as though just because they spent money on something, that the entire company needs to stop, completely contradict all of their policies and mission statements, just to accommodate that one customer, and that is not how it works.

The fact of the matter is, you paid $60 for a product, and Bethesda supplied that product. The only thing anybody is entitled to is Bethesda supplying a functional product. Otherwise, you paid money for the product as is, not for them to completely change it into something to satisfy you specifically.

If you buy that .mp3 player and it doesn't work properly, you return it to the store and you get a refund. However, if you pay for a 50GB .mp3 player, and you begin complaining that you can only store 50GB, and not 100GB like the other .mp3 player that was offered, your complaint is not valid. You had an opportunity to buy an .mp3 player that more met your needs, but you didn't.

If that customer were to say "wow, after buying this, I really wish that I had more space on my .mp3 player, and I really like this Apple model, so in the future, I hope that Apple makes a 100GB .mp3 player", that's valid. But to say "Apple is horrible, I bought a 50GB .mp3 player from them and it can't hold as many .mp3's as Sony's 100GB model", that is not a valid complaint, and that is what a lot of the Bethesda [censored]ing on these forums amounts to.

Saying "I wish that Bethesda would implement more multi-path branching questlines in the future" is a valid statement.

Saying "Skyrim svcks because Fallout: New Vegas has more multi-path branching questlines" is invalid, because Bethesda never intended to design a multi-path branching questline game. Bethesda didn't even design or develop Fallout: New Vegas so it can't even be used as a precedent for them utilizing the game mechanics that you are asking for. It honestly truly amounts to the same thing as saying "Skyrim svcks, because Madden NFL has better football mechanics than Skyrim". You paid $60 to buy Skyrim as it is, not for Skyrim to be catered to your every want and desire.

Now, where the customer has a little bit more pull is with MMO's, because you are a recurring customer, and if the company wants to keep your business, they would do well to continue to meet the customer's wants and demands. Even then, you still don't have some twisted entitlement for the company to cater to you and only you, and if you don't like the direction the company is taking with their product, you simply cease to continue paying them to use their product.

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to a product that I am not satisfied with, I get a lot more satisfaction out of simply no longer using that product, and if it's bad enough, or my experiences with the company set a bad enough trend, to no longer buy products from that company, and find something else that I do want to spend money on, instead of constantly whining and complaining about it. For example - Bethesda has pretty much earned my trust with 4 straight "favorite game of all time" titles, in Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and now Skyrim. All 4 of those games rank at the top of my "all time favorites" list, 1-4. On the other hand, anything that's release that has the "EA" logo on it has earned a high level of caution before I buy, because I have been burned many times in the past by EA games, particularly the Madden NFL series, but other games as well. I do not approve of their business tactics (buying out the exclusive NFL license so that other NFL games cannot be made, removing any and all competition), and because of those business tactics, I believe they intentionally create sub par products because they have no competition, and people will buy cuz hey, it's the NFL. So I am very weary of buying anything that is developed or distributed by EA, and require some heavy research into the product before I do so.

Many of my favorite video game series or movie series, or even musical artists, have become completely different than what I originally became drawn to. Metal Gear went from a semi-realistic espionage game to a very far out there, lame anime series. Considering how much I absolutely despise anime, and pretty much any form of Japanese entertainment, instead of constantly [censored]ing about what Metal Gear became, I stopped playing it when I realized it was no longer what I liked, and I found something that was more to my liking. That's when I found the Hitman series. I used to love the hell out of Linkin Park, and would always buy their CD's, DVD's, and go to concerts. Then, I didn't like the direction they took with their music. Instead of whining and crying about it with some invalid sense of entitlement that they should make music the way I want them to, I stopped buying their CD's. I hate what the Terminator movie series became, starting with Terminator 3, instead of whining about it with some invalid sense of entitlement, I just stopped going to see Terminator movies and buying them when they came out on DVD.

Just because you pay money for something doesn't mean you are entitled to getting every single last one of your wishes and desires met. You pay money for a product as it is, that is all you are entitled to. If you don't like it, you stop using that product and go on to something else, you don't whine and cry to the company because they didn't make the product exactly the way you wanted it, when what you wanted was never what they were intending in the first place.

This is where I disagree. New Vegas has a ton more non-linear quests than any one of those games (big plus for me) and its mechanics are more balanced as well. I'd put it above Oblivion, Skyrim, and Fallout 3, and at or just above Morrowind.

Thing is, there is a difference between making a valid complaint, and pure [censored]ing. A lot of what happens on this forum is the latter. You say the very fact that Bethesda pays to keep this forum open shows which side of the argument it sits on - I think the fact that they ignore the mindless whining and crying, and only address respectful, well thought out and articulated complaints, and don't feed the mindless whining and crying of "Skyrim svcks cuz it's not X Y Z" proves my point rather well.

Valid complaint: I felt like I had more control over my character with Attributes, I'd hope that they bring Attributes back in the future.

^ That is a valid complaint. Not one I agree with, but it is valid, and it brings the situation to Bethesda's attention for them to consider for TES VI.

Invalid complaint: Skyrim isn't a true RPG because all it does is remove RPG mechanics left and right! Without attributes, you cannot customize your character! Skyrim isn't an RPG!

^ That is not a valid complaint. It takes one person's opinion, states it as a general world truth, and in the process, does not allow discussion of the matter because it is automatically discrediting any conflicting ideas as inferior. It's the definition of an "I'm right, you're wrong" argument. It makes accusations instead of makes suggestions..

People are giving Bethesda more than enough credit.