And this is where I disagree. While I enjoyed Fallout: New Vegas, I didn't think the story or characters were anywhere near as interesting as Fallout 3, the world, while largely open world, had way too many "invisible walls" for my tastes, and ultimately just didn't capture what I liked about Fallout 3 in the first place, and didn't capture what I'm looking for in an RPG. Sure, hardcoe mode and the wide selection of factions to align yourself with were nice additions, and if TES ever implemented those in that manner, I'd be happy about it, but the whole package didn't measure up in my book. Way too many deficiencies elsewhere for my tastes.


That's all well and good, but the thing is, "well written stories" is a subjective opinion, not an objective fact. I happen to think the stories and the writing in Skyrim are just fine, no better no worse than previous TES games. Story also isn't what I play TES games for, I play them for an open world that I can exist in in any way I see fit, I can have ultimate control over my character, who he is, and what he becomes, without a game giving me a pre-defined character to fit into their pre-conceived storylines. In fact, in many ways, I feel the less story the better, I play these games to have my own experiences, and that's what I love about TES.


You say don't get too caught up in words, but the thing is, this is a message board, all we have are words.

If I talk to my friend in person about Skyrim, and he says "Skyrim svcks cuz X Y Z", I can hear the humor, jest, and sarcasm in his voice to know that this isn't his "well thought out argument", and that we can actually have a well thought out discussion about the things that we do and don't like about Skyrim, and why it doesn't appeal to him. In fact, of my friends, I am really the only one as big into TES games as I am. The other 2 (I'm talking about my real true group of best friends), they have all the TES games from Morrowind til' now, but they don't appeal to them like the games do to me. We've had the conversations about where TES falls short in their eyes, and they give well thought out reasons about why they don't like it. So when my friend then in a phone conversation says "Skyrim svcks dude!" I know he's joking, because I can hear inflection and tone.

You don't have that on an internet message board. All you have is words. So that's all I have to get caught up in is the words, because that's all I have to base the thoughts presented by. And when the words used are childish, accusatory, and inflammatory, I have no other way to interpret that than as childish, accusatory, and inflammatory.

The fact that there is no consensus of a "true RPG" makes my point even further, that people should stop trying to force their definition down everyone's throat when what they are looking for isn't necessarily what I'm looking for.

When playing an RPG, I am looking for a game where I can develop and define my own character, through any combination of actions, skills, personality, accomplishments, etc... and I don't need attributes for that, nor do I need dice rolls to determine the outcome of my actions. For some people, that stuff is crucial. Great. But don't tell me how necessary attributes are to an RPG when for me, getting rid of attributes and implementing perks may have been the best thing TES has done in my eyes in terms of RP and character development.

As far as the underlying content that you're speaking of, that's all fine and well, but it's not the underlying content I have issues with - I don't have issues with people wanting killcam toggles, multi path branching questlines, longer guild questlines, spears athletics acrobatics medium armor and crossbows, or hell even attributes. I have a problem with the attitude that runs rampant with many of these complaints, making generalized insults such as "casuals", insulting console players and blaming them for the decline in game quality, using insulting terms like "dumbing down" or "hand holding" which implies that people who enjoy it are of lesser capabilities and need a game to be made easier for them, and yes that attitude does run rampant. It is not a generalization. That is what I have a problem with, not the wants and desires that people have.

I'll use a perfect example. I went to McDonald's today. My order was for 2 McChicken sandwiches, a large fry, and a large Dr. Pepper. When I got up to the window to pay, the woman thought my order was 2 McChicken sandwiches, a large Sprite, and a large Dr. Pepper. I am a paying customer, so they should make sure that my order is correct, right? Absolutely.

But what is a better way to go about it? "That total sounds wrong, you have my order as 2 McChickens, large fry, large Dr. Pepper right?", in which the woman tells me the order she thought I gave, and we work it out so that my order is complete, I am charged correctly, and I get what I paid for.

Or do I say "What's wrong with you? I ordered a large fry, not a large Sprite. How can you confuse Sprite and fry? This is inexcusable!" in which people are now pissed off over a human error that could happen to anyone, and really isn't that big of a deal.

Okay, so spears are out, and it'd be great to have them in. So how do you go about addressing that? "I miss spears, I wish they'd make a return in a DLC or a future TES game", or do you say "Skyrim svcks, Bethesda svcks all they do is remove content, what happened to spears? We have so little choice now!" which does nothing but piss people off because of unnecessary over reactions to what's ultimately a minor problem.

I don't understand your viewpoint here, nor do I understand how Fallout 3 is what you are looking for in an RPG and that New Vegas isn't. Opinions. Regardless, I'm glad that you agree hardcoe mode and faction relations should be implemented in TES games. One thing that really bothers me about Skyrim is the lack of guild content (as I've no doubt said before), and I'd also like to see the return of a proper reputation system, like New Vegas has. In my mind, those aren't the only areas where Bethesda could learn from New Vegas though; quests with multiple solutions would make TES games infinitely more replayable. One of the great things about New Vegas is how every quest can be solved in multiple ways and has multiple solutions. People say that with voice acting, this would be too expensive to accomplish, but New Vegas proves that it can be accomplished. IMO, Bethesda should be focusing less on how many dungeons they can fit into the map and more on making their quests well written, with multiple solutions. Having more outlets than your character's stats in which to play your role is vital to me in a role-playing game, and Skyrim is lacking there.


It's not out of the question that TES games have been "dumbed down" for consoles. The current generation of consoles have aging hardware, and in general are capable of much less than a good PC. If TES games were developed for PC, we'd most definitely have more content. But then again, their sales would suffer, and since Bethesda is all about maximizing profit, they'll continue to develop for consoles and continue to "streamline" the series.
I just wish The Elder Scrolls would head in the opposite direction of where it appears to be going. If they continue to remove stuff, eventually they'll cross the point where the games can even be considered RPGs, and they'll become open world first-person shooters. I know some people like the streamlining, but I don't. I think Bethesda gets more than enough credit for what they do, as the glowing reviews of their games show.

Bethesda gets the credit they earned from me. Skyrim was a "C". I give it a "C".

Fixing bugs or tweaking the balance isn't going to even get it a C+... although fixing the horrid "UI bug"* might get it as far as a B-.
If you're really interested why I give it a C, that's a multi-page post in and of itself, and not something I can swing this week.

* The interface can't possibly be this bad on purpose, can it?

I'm surprised nobody tried to lock this thread by now.

People give Bethesda TOO MUCH credit, honestly.

Like you said, opinions. I don't think that the stories are worth all the hype they get, the characters weren't nearly as memorable as Fallout 3's characters, the world wasn't nearly as interesting as Fallout 3's, and outside of a few improvements here or there, I don't think the gameplay dynamics nor character building is anywhere near as good as TES's.

The thing about the multiple path quests though - ideally, I agree with you, multiple paths to complete quests would be great, but that's never been what TES has been about. In Morrowind, there was no option to join the Sixth House and side with Dagoth Ur. There may have been a few side quests here or there that offered alternate paths, but TES games have never been designed in that fashion. Fallout 3 did more of this than TES did. It has nothing really to do with Bethesda's capabilities or lack thereof, they did it with Fallout 3, but it has more to do with their vision for the game, and they've never had multi path questlines as a priority. It would be nice if they did implement them as a major focus, sure, but I feel it's hard to condemn Skyrim for this when 1.) TES has never been about that and 2.) Morrowind and Oblivion never got condemned for this.


But all you're looking is what's been removed, and like most of the "Bethesda removed X, Y, Z" complaints, it fails to acknowledge - to the point of ignoring - what was added. I personally prefer the direction they are going, from where I started with the series with Morrowind. I feel that on paper there might be less, but when you actually get into the nuts and bolts of what's actually there, we have more.

We lost Armorer / weapon degradation and replaced it with a fully fledged crafting skill in Smithing. I call that an improvement, and added depth, not removed depth. And in future games, they can expand upon it even more.

We still don't have Spears, no, but we got dual wielding. While some may call it a gimmick, I call it a much welcome, and long awaited feature that gives me even more options in combat than ever before.

We lost Athletics and Acrobatics - seriously, we lost leveling up for running and jumping. That's not a loss.

Enchanting made its return as a skill.

Pickpocket made its return as a skill.

Mysticism was never lost, it's spells and abilities were merged into other schools and other areas. Hand to Hand was lost as a skill, but still has perks that allow for specialization in that playstyle. Unarmored was lost after Morrowind, but again perks are in the game that allow for specialization in that playstyle. Mercantile was merged with Speechcraft and has it's own branch on Speech's perk tree. Attributes were removed, but every single function that Attributes provided are now featured in Perks. Many things that are claimed to have been removed weren't actually removed, they were simply implemented in a different fashion.

Spellmaking was lost, okay, but I've advocated for a long long time that Spellmaking wouldn't be compatible on a technical level with the current gameplay mechanics that have been implemented, at least not the wide open Spellmaking feature as we've known it. It would have to be severely limited in order to function. In my opinion, if it's a choice between the current gameplay system or Spellmaking, I'll take the current gameplay system. So while losing Spellmaking stings a little bit, I still feel like we got an upgrade with all the new types of spell abilities that are in the game. I will admit it didn't reach it's true potential, and I'd like to see the return of a lot more spell effects like summons and Command Spells (I don't think Open Lock spells are a loss in the least bit), but I still feel it's better than what we had before. I feel we got quality over quantity. And even then, we still might get spell combinations in a later patch or DLC.

In the grand scheme of things, from what Morrowind offered us compared to what Skyrim offered us, we lost Spears, Crossbows, thrown weapons, Medium Armor, Athletics, Acrobatics, and Spellmaking. I don't see those losses as anything significant.

What we got was dual wielding capabilities which allow for entirely new types of playstyles and character types, we got more depth within each skill (each skill has numerous specializations, I.E.: One Handed and Two Handed have Sword, Axe, and Mace / Warhammer specializations, Sneak has multiple paths for remaining undetected, or doing additional damage (including dagger specialization), Conjuration has necromancy or Atronach specialization, Destruction was Fire, Frost, or Shock specialization, Smithing has Heavy or Light Armor specialization, etc...), we got a more involved combat and magic system that greatly improved gameplay, we got Shouts which offer entirely new styles of play and strategy. We got followers which adds a party dynamic to the game that was never there before. The world is more detailed and alive than ever before.

Yea, guild questlines could be longer, but I feel they are tons more interesting. And yea, multiple outcome questlines would be nice, but that's never been a TES feature, so you can't claim the series is getting "dumbed down" for not having it.

So with all that above listed, you can see how I'd have a problem with the phrase "dumbing down" in regards to Skyrim. 1.) I don't feel it's accurate in the least bit, and 2.) it implies that I am "dumbed down" because I like the current direction and feel that what Skyrim offers is superior to what Morrowind offers.

I can understand if you don't prefer a lot of the new ways that Skyrim implements features, because it is different than how we've been used to, and it is different from how many people like things to be done. That's a valid criticism.

But to try to state factually that it is worse, to try to claim factually that it is "dumbed down", I believe to be a very invalid statement to make because it is a matter of preference, and a lot of those attempted factual claims of removal are factually false - much of what people claim was removed wasn't actually removed, it was just implemented in a different fashion. Not liking that implementation is a valid opinion, but claiming that it's not there is invalid and factually wrong.

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