I know. Thats what I'm saying. Ideally, they should have taken that course of action (delaying PS3 release), instead of leaving out an entire swathe of gamers like you initially suggested o_0

i raise a mug of mead in the honor of Sir Todd Howard!

I'd agreee that there's already been more than enough "congrats to Bethesda" type threads on the forum but, that's just my opinion and if people want to keep creating these threads, that's their business.

But it's the reason I didn't jump into this thread and add my "really enjoy the game ... gave me more than my money's worth" line. I've already said that before and don't feel a need to keep repeating it time after time in "congrats to Bethesda" type threads.

And my remarks in this regard have always been intended for the folks who actualy worked on the game ... and who, regardless of whatever real or perceived flaw it might have, obviously put a lot of time, effort and heart into it ... rather than the company itself, which is, as with any corporate entity, is in the business of making money for it's shareholders.


Indeed.

In my experience, many humans tend to react badly to criticism of something to which they've formed some sort of attachment.

So while it isn't right ... people may see a criticism of that "something" as a criticism of themselves, i.e., their judgement.

And, as you mentioned, react passionately.

Similar to the ... in my view ... bizarre attachment some feel towards sports teams, resulting at times in a riots.

While none of these fans are impacted in any real way by the sports teams fortunes, i.e., has no impact on their financial situation or any other part of their life, some have formed such an attachment that they don't react well to disparagement of their chosen team or a loss by the team or ... in some cases ... an indication, e.g., club color scarf, that another individual supports a different team.

Completely irrational but, it is what it is.

On the other hand though, I haven't seen a situation since I've joined the forum (a couple of months after release) where anyone who has started a discussion of the "weaknesses" they saw in Skyrim and explained their views in a rational and respectful way ... rather than in a disrespectful, snotty, supercilious "know it all" way that whether directly or not disparages alternative opinions ... have been attacked or "invalidated" by many, if any, other forum members.

Not saying this hasn't happened ... just that I haven't seen it.

On the contrary, I recall one thread in particular from a couple of months back where the OP had a very reasoned argument concerning the weakness they saw in Skyrim and the first responding post was along the lines of "get ready for the "fan boys" to jump all over you".

Which didn't happen but, that remark could have sent the thread in the wrong direction pretty quickly.

And I've seen numerous situations where folks who have a problem with some aspect of Skyrim make their comment ... perhaps the same they've made a hundred times before ... in what most might view as a somewhat less than constructive manner, then come back and cry foul when other people jump all over them.

We all know, or should understand, that unless a comment pertains to an issue that seems to be an evidence based fact ... such as the PS3 situation ... it is just an opinion.

However, some people express their "opinion" in a way that comes across as if it is a "fact and only an idiot would disagree" manner ... which understandably, to me at least, may put some other people's teeth on edge... rather than it being just their personally held opinion.

And then sometimes react badly when others, whether in a respectful way or not, disagree with their "opinion" ... perhaps because in their mind it is a "fact" (and only an idiot would disagree) rather than just their own opinion.

For example, I just finished FO:NV and while I thought the game was okay, it bored me to tears at times and had many aspects that I personally find annoying and/or pointless in RPG type games.

However, other people apparently enjoy some of the stuff that I don't and that's fine by me.

I certainly wouldn't question their view in this regard. Nor would I be be jumping all over the game developer, because obviously they put a lot of thought, care and effort into the game.

Just wasn't really enjoyable for me. And that's just a matter of me and my gaming wants and needs ... has nothing to do with the game itself.

Web forums can put people in "between a rock and a hard place" situation ... same as game designers who, no matter what decision they make, will be told by someone or some group of people that it's wrong.

If you come across a comment that you don't agree with, you get to choose whether to just ignore it or respond to it.

For me, I tend towards "ignore" because the issue is often something that isn't in any way an issue for me but, I can see where it might be for another person, or I could care less about the issue in the first place.

But in some cases, I feel that if I don't respond with an alternative viewpoint, casual forum "lurkers" might just accept the comment as "must be right" because no one has offered a different "opinion".

The comments I have the most difficulty with are those that attack the development team.

If I thought Skyrim was a crappy game that was just put out to make a few bucks off a gullible public, I might wholeheartedly agree with this type of comment ... though I personally wouldn't see it as being worth my time to carry on about it on a game forum.

However, I don't think this and this type of comment pushes a button with me.

Because, I've been in situations where I've busted my butt on a project to deliver the best product I could and then had myself and/or my team attacked by folks simply because of who they were, i.e., folks who just by reflex attack anything that someone else does ... and who in my observation were, coincidentally enough, often folks who never delivered anything of value themselves.

I've never had difficulty with well reasoned and presented criticism of anything I've ever done or decisions I've made, because I'm well aware that I'm not perfect and nothing I create will ever be perfect.

I do have a problem with folks who've attacked me, after I've busted my butt to deliver the best product I could, just because it's their nature to do so.

I'm not saying anyone on this forum is that type of person.

However, the wording and tone of some criticisms ... regardless of my understanding or perhaps agreeing with the core point ... directed at the folks who worked on Skyrim have at times pushed the above-mentioned button with me.

Because to my mind, whether you agree with their decisions in every aspect of the game or not, I do believe the folks who worked on Skyrim put a lot of effort and care into the project and don't deserve some of the remarks ... or at least the manner in which these were worded ... directed at them on this board.

I know how I'd feel, and have felt, having this type of remark directed at me ... and it definitely wouldn't encourage me to take any of the commenter's opinions seriously.

Then again, I sometimes find myself wondering why I worry about this kind of at all on a game forum, because when all is said and done, Skyrim is after all just a game ... albeit one that for the most part, I've thouroughly enjoyed.

I've got no problems with negative views of Skyrim when they are handled properly. As you said, when someone states something like "I'm not a fan of X feature", or "I wish Y feature was implemented in Z fashion". That's respectable, whether positive or negative, and warrants no hostility what so ever.

Now, I may disagree with such an assessment, and I may say as much, but if it's presented in such a respectful manner, I certainly won't be hostile.

Where I begin to get upset is when people insinuate that I am just blind to any shortcomings when I don't make complaints about the game. Thing is, I really don't have any complaints about the game. That doesn't mean there aren't things that I don't think can be done better, but at the same time, that also doesn't mean that I think it is something worth complaining about. I don't like the insults and condescension that comes when complaints are stated as world truths that cannot possibly be contradicted. I don't believe that attributes are necessary RPG mechanics, I don't believe that attributes made Morrowind or Oblivion better, and I prefer the method that Skyrim took with perks. I also don't like the blatant lies and mistruths that are spoke to exaggerate a point. Such as the remarks that without attributes, there is no character customization - when everything that attributes covered in past games, exists within perks in some fashion. The proper statement is not there there is no customization, because literally, the same customization exists in the game, the statement is that you don't prefer it's current implementation. And that's a valid opinion. One I may again disagree with, but when you make blatant untrue claims, I am going to respond to it to correct you. Same goes when people say the world responds to nothing you do (sure it does, I can list off plenty of things the world does to respond to you), or that all Bethesda does is remove remove remove (plenty was removed in the same implementation that we've known it in the past, but most of what people claim was removed still exists in the game, many even having perks to allow for that particular playstyle to still exist. Again, to say it was removed is a mistruth - it is in the game, but you don't like the implementation, you liked how it was implemented in Morrowind better. Again, I disagree, but it is valid).

I haven't experienced game breaking bugs, so why would I complain about them. The bugs that I have encountered have been so minor that they have had no impact on me outside of a very brief few second occurrence, so again, why would I spend my time complaining about something so minor and trivial?

I'm not denying their existence. I'm saying I haven't experienced these same things. So why would I complain about something that I haven't experienced, and hasn't affected me?

I didn't say you were complaining for the sake of complaining (although many people do complain for the sake of complaining)

I said there is no purpose to me complaining when I don't have anything to complain about.

Attributes are still kind of in there - strength seems to have been worked into the damage bonus perks, intelligence/endurance are now simply magicka and health (which makes sense as that is all they represented anyway), speed has been melded into encumbrance, and from what I can tell agility, luck and willpower have gone out the window.

I think Beth are trying to work the 'pen and paper' RPG aspects into the background, which will be hard to swallow for those who enjoy that aspect. But if immersion is what they are gunning for, then that approach makes sense.

I do have to agree with those bemoaning the removal of spellcrafting though - that was a gaffe IMO. warriors can craft weapons and armour both regular and magical, assassins can still brew potent poisons, but mages lose the ability to tailor their attack and defense. It does seem a bit unfair, and this is coming from a wrecking ball warrior player.

When I look into both how Spellmaking worked, as well as how the current system works, I don't think that Spellmaking - as we've known it - could exist with the current design. It would have to be majorly tweaked and be extremely limiting to work within the current design.

As someone who loved Spellmaking in past games, I really don't miss it all that much. It was fun, but you weren't really creating anything new, you were just altering the things that were already there.

I would certainly love to see it come back if it could be made to work properly. But as is, I think it would have to be majorly changed.

Hopefully it was omitted because they hadn't finished it, and it will surface as part of DLC. A bit cheeky? Maybe, but better than not at all...

This.

Exactly.

Thank you, Bethesda, for giving me the greatest game I've ever played thus far (and my gaming goes all the way back to the Commodore 64 and the Atari 2600)!

Thank you, Bethesda. I love Skyrim!

this is probably what they would love people to believe.

but it does not excuse the pre-release hype about how the ps3 was getting all this attention and it was performing wonderfully - keep in mind T Howard said they KNEW at release about the problems.

+edit+ Also, this is now the third game released like this for PS3. FO3, FONV and now Skyrim. They have known about the issues (purportedly in the engine) at least since FO3, and probably as early as when 4J took on Oblivion. I can't believe the didn't get some feedback about the problems 4J encountered porting OB.

there is no new hardware in anybody's PS3. except for some of the hybrid or straight SSD drives installed which would improve matters. tyhey have the resources and time to make sure this game performed just fine on the PS3, they CHOSE not to do so.

But they had no problem accepting millions of dollars from customers for a subpar product that still doesn't work right.

unfortunately I think these issues will be glossed over by the modding community filling in the gaps.

it this is just the beginning, why would they release games full and lively as previous titles if they don't have to? people are not holdign them accountable because they pop in the disc and go 'ooh pretty'

And to my mind, this is a perfectly reasonable issue to raise and you've mentioned it in a, to my mind, constructive manner.

IIt is one that I don't have any "attachment" to because my type of characters would likely never use spell crafting anyway.

But for folks whose characters do, and whose enjoyment of the game may be seriously reduced by the elimination of spell crafting, I the concern is valid and shouldn't be brushed off as "no big deal" by anyone who, like me, wouldn't use it and/or for whatever reason doesn't miss it.

And to be honest, I think fans of the series who have used this in past games at the very least deserve ... if it hasn't been previously provided ... an explanation from Beth as to their rationale in dropping it.

But, that's just my opinion.

The only thing that amazes me is the amount of times I have to load an old save to avoid some game breaking bug. If it wasn't for the bugs, I'd like Skyrim, not as much as Morrowind, but more than Oblivion. However, it does seem with each new release the amount of time it takes to truly run through the quests get shorter and shorter. I wish they'd break both of those trends.... release a TES game with less bugs and ADD content, stop taking it away.

The only way I see this as being true is if you haven't yet reached around level 30. The game seemed fine to me up to about level 32, then all hell broke loose. Of course, after about a week of frustrating restarts, reloads, blah blah blah, I finally reloaded before a certain point in the Civil War line of quests and suddenly I was in much better shape. Now I only deal with a dialogue bug that breaks the game and forces me to reload an earlier save (still annoying but I make many saves now before every step in every quest). If you are past level 30 and haven't seen a game breaking bug, I salute you sir for you truly are blessed. Go play the lottery because you are on a roll!

Seriously,people need to stop pating Bethesda's back like they landed on the moon or something.The game is very good,yes...and we are thankful,yes....and iam giving credit/saying thank you by spending my earned money on this game and possible dlc..that should be enough..so lets move on

Why?

It's my opinion and my proclivity that they should get a pat on the back. If you don't agree, then that's your prerogative, but don't come into a thread that's all about thanking Bethesda and tell us we're stupid for doing so.

It seriously deviates from the Forum rules, and significantly detracts from the conversation that we're trying to have. if you don't agree with the thread subject then post as such and move on. But don't try to paint this as a lack of intelligence on out part simply because we feel that Bethesda needs more praise than they're getting.

You have your opinion and i have mine.Dont be pissed becouse not everyone agrees with you or others here in this thread.Peace

I'd just like to say IMO Skyrim is the best single-player game ever. And nobody is going to change my mind about that. Thank you sooo very much Bethesda , I was worried single-player games were dead.

I think it is just awful so many ppl pick on certain elements of the game, and dis it for those reasons. Show me a great single-player game that is perfect, with no drawbacks. There is no such thing - cannot be done. That said, a little constructive criticism is a good thing - as long as you give credit where credit is due too. This is my (other) credit post. C'me on, lighten up, guys. Don't let a few dead trees get in the way of noticing the forest.

I'm not pissed, I just don't see the point of coming in a thread like this and thinly veiling an attack on our intelligence simply because we want to give Bethesda more props.

I just don't see what that accomplishes.

I'm on the 360 and have had a few characters over level 50 and haven't encountered much other than the broken quest line bugs described in a number of threads ... or for me, one not working as anticipated quest line.

I had more problems with my recent run through with FO:NV than I've had with Skyrim.

Doesn't "invalidate" anything another player might have experienced, just saying in my case, I haven't encountered any game-breaking issues.

I agree that Skyrim's biggest flaw is the lack of depth in the guilds but regarding your Morrowind comments you need to take off your nostagia goggles. The reason why it took you 500 hours to become bored with the game is due to its poor game mechanics. You start out moving like a turtle, the map is useless, the journal is horrible, just to name a few things.

Well, this article includes something he mentioned ... maybe there are others someone wants to share.

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/121/1218881p1.html

And his statement seems to correspond to stuff I've read on the this forum from folks who say they're PS3 users and haven't encountered the major issues that other PS3 users say they've run into.



This is where you kind of lose me because, beyond the fact that there are many threads on this forum discussing issues that many players have, to whatever extent, had with various aspects of the game and ways that these could be improved in either Skyrim and/or future TES titles, you seem to indicate that those who don't agree ... and we'll leave the PS3 side of things out of this ... with your own point of view are in essence morons who "pop in the disk and go "ooh pretty".

And the funny thing is, this is from a person who has encountered difficulty on their platform of choice with a game published by Beth but who has then bought another one, apparently without waiting to see what other PS3 players and/or various web gaming sources have to say about a that game's performance on the PS3.

Now to me, this doesn't indicate "sharpest tack in the box" thinking ... and certainly doesn't, in my view, give an individual the right to then go on and characterize anyone who doesn't fully agree with their opinion of how game should be, or perhaps agree with the way that opinion is offered, as pretty much mindless twits mesmerized by shiny baubles.

My $60 was thanks enough.

Right, they are a business out for my money, and to get it they have to work for it!

Still it doesn't hurt praising what should be praised.

On the flipside though, i'll never, ever stop mocking Skyrim's UI, Oblivion's level scaling, or the level cap increase in So Very, Very Broken Steel (the new content in it was good, though ).

Yeah, that's generally my attitude as well.

That being said, I've blown $60 on games that were either complete garbage or that just didn't turn out to be my kind of game or, for series, had for me moved too far away from what I'd originally liked about the games (Final Fantasy comes to mind in that regard) ... though other folks obviously still enjoyed them.

So, I don't have a problem coming on here and saying I really enjoyed the game and feel I got my $60 worth out of it.

Or occasionally offering my thoughts re: things that, in my view, could be done better or improved at some future point, or would just increase my enjoyment of the game.


And doesn't hurt to provide constructive criticism either.

But, I have to say that from my experience in retail through the years, some customers are more trouble than they're worth and eventually need to be advised that they should just take their ... in this case ... $60 ... and opinions ... elsewhere.

And if I was Beth, there'd be a few on this forum to whom I'd be saying exactly that.

But, I'm not Beth and if they're okay having forum members spamming the forum over and over again with the same ... not constructively offered ... copy and paste criticism and/or complaint ... without ever offering anything much in the way of constructive comment ... that's their business, not mine.

I've had characters well above level 30 that completed numerous major questlines, including the main quest and the College of Winterhold.

The only true major bug I have ever encountered is one time the end of the Forsworn Conspiracy quest was unable to complete, because when I arrived in the Shrine of Talos, there was an Imperial Soldier who approached me to join the Legion, instead of a Markarth guard who was there to frame me of murder.

That's it. One quest breaking bug since I've been playing the game since release on 11/11/11.

So I can honestly and truly say that I have never encountered a bug that was worth running to the forums to complain about.

This actually holds true for every Bethesda game I've ever played.