hm.. not exactly what i meant but go ahead and put words in my mouth. it is the internet after all.

not to derail the whole thread with my personal story. i'm newer to PS3 than I am to TES. MW on pc, OB on xbox360 until it died then I got ps3. Never knew of the issues until FONV started [censored]ting on me, shortly before Skyrim was released. The first game I bought for PS3 was oblivion and it performs awesomely (ported by someone else).

FONV + dlc gave me problems but works without the DLC. FONV had enough story and mechanics to make me look past the rare freeze or lag.

FO3 (bought used for 10usd) had issues but for ten bucks I was like meh..

But you avoid the bottom line here. They told us the platform was getting "tons of attention" and all platforms reached a place of "parity"

as for leveling insults. mine was both accidental and required some liberal extension of the thought, but yours is right out in front and as many have said before those who can't intelligently debate default to name calling.

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person. good day, sir.

Yeah, Stardock's boss does just that, refunds people and says he doesn't need their business in the future Of course he runs his own privately held company so he can say that. I doubt Todd could even if he wanted to

Yeah ... sure, lol.

I'd suggest it's a bit late in the day to express for you to express concern about derailing the intent of the thread

There was no "liberal extension of thought" required.

Funny thing about many of you "copy and paste" style complainers, as opposed to those who offer constructive criticism, is that it seems you can't just admit you might be wrong about anything ... instead coming back with one feeble excuse or another, e.g., ."put words in my mouth" to try to justify whatever inane remark someone has taken you to task for.

You just keep digging yourselves in deeper.

As for "insult" apparently you're a little hazy about the difference between an "insult" and an obvious statement of fact.

Anyway, given the expanded version of your story, I apologise if what seemed to me to be an obvious statement of fact based of my reading of the (your) post in question offended you in any way.

And "good day to you sir", as well, lol..

And I'd guess there's been a few times he's wanted to.

Ah I see, I thought you were pointing the finger at me because I have issue a with this game.

That being said, the respawn bug is totally ruining it for me and ash piles still in places accumulate and so on. There is just many reasons bug wise I an irritated with this game on top of the slashed content. In replace of what we have lost all I see is graphical fluff.

We're not complaining, we're giving hints to what we would like in the DLC and TES 6.

Or bug fixes.

Bethesda is actually one of my game industry role models simply because Todd's team makes games they honestly do want to play. I know other companies do that, but I was only 16 when I read an interview with him and was not in the know at all when it came to the gaming industry. I admire the hard work they put into this game, but the game isn't perfect. It has tons of non-glitch problems that aren't even related to many things people take note of. Most of these problems are nitpicks or noticing the over spawning of dragons(which probably was an accident in the first place). The named dragons were fun to interact with, fight, or fly on.

It would have been nice to see the flying on dragon thing be sort of like a more polished version of the dragon combat parts of the first Drakengard game. I can understand why fletching isn't in the game, though. It'd take tons of memory to make a non-mod of such a thing. I might be wrong, but the only way the whole thing could be manageable is if the arrows were made in stacks of 100 each. It also would break the leveling system even then because you could gather up everything needed to make at least over 8000(I would say 9000 for non-humor purposes, but I don't feel like wanting to strangle a scouter scanner thing...) arrows in a game day and possibly level up at least 5 levels.

Yeah, I'm fine with a little lack of balance, but fletching would be way too easy to abuse. And why does Firefox consider the word fletching to not be a word?

I don't agree with that last statement, but I suppose that is for another thread.

As far as pointing the finger towards people who have issues, I wouldn't and don't do that. I may "point the finger" at how that opinion is expressed, but if someone has a gripe with the game for whatever reason, they have a right to express that. I would just hope that it is done respectfully. It's usually when I feel it's not done respectfully that I start "pointing the finger" at them. As far as I know, I haven't seen you post anything in a disrespectful manner or tone, so I've no issues with your claims outside of a basic disagreement.

Well every game dev out there can always do better than they already done, no game is perfect but with that said Bethesda is one of my favs and have been for a long time along with Runic, CD projekt and Eidos Montreal now not many devs left that i actually respect anymore.

Hi teher Eps! May this Saturday be the best in your life so far.


I think it's a sad state of affairs when one might feel compelled to rephrase in order to escape forum lapidation. What's wrong with complaining? Paying customers have earned their right to complain. Why is it acceptable to complain anywhere else - to airline companies officers, insurance reps, a mp3 player salesperson, the checkout lady - but not here? Where and when and why has Bethesda gotten this golden exemption? I say let people praise, complain and everything in between all they want.

Thank you!!! I couldn't agree more.

I'm on PC and I've got a dozen characters and about half them are over level 30 as high as 54 and no game breaking bugs or anything more than a small smile for a flying shovel or somethiing. Maybe its not as universal as some folks think. I've apparently been uber lucky with Morrowind and Oblivion also.

I would say thank you if the game was free, but i paid money for a service. It was a business transaction, money in exchange for a product. The patches however are worthy of a thank you, even if they are not done purely for the satisfaction of the customer, they are a good business practice and a continued investment in a product. Few developers put that much additional post-re;ease investment into a game that won't see monetary returns.

Beth does good work, and made a high quality product. However, since i paid for the product, saying "thank you" would be improper.

Because just like the examples you cited, along with online message board forums for video games, the customer quite simply put is not always right. People that complain to check out ladies, or any of those other examples you cited, are more often than not quite frankly acting out a very spoiled, entitlement complex where they believe they deserve to have a company cater to them, and only to them, even though the customer has no claim to such treatment. People feel as though just because they spent money on something, that the entire company needs to stop, completely contradict all of their policies and mission statements, just to accommodate that one customer, and that is not how it works.

The fact of the matter is, you paid $60 for a product, and Bethesda supplied that product. The only thing anybody is entitled to is Bethesda supplying a functional product. Otherwise, you paid money for the product as is, not for them to completely change it into something to satisfy you specifically.

If you buy that .mp3 player and it doesn't work properly, you return it to the store and you get a refund. However, if you pay for a 50GB .mp3 player, and you begin complaining that you can only store 50GB, and not 100GB like the other .mp3 player that was offered, your complaint is not valid. You had an opportunity to buy an .mp3 player that more met your needs, but you didn't.

If that customer were to say "wow, after buying this, I really wish that I had more space on my .mp3 player, and I really like this Apple model, so in the future, I hope that Apple makes a 100GB .mp3 player", that's valid. But to say "Apple is horrible, I bought a 50GB .mp3 player from them and it can't hold as many .mp3's as Sony's 100GB model", that is not a valid complaint, and that is what a lot of the Bethesda [censored]ing on these forums amounts to.

Saying "I wish that Bethesda would implement more multi-path branching questlines in the future" is a valid statement.

Saying "Skyrim svcks because Fallout: New Vegas has more multi-path branching questlines" is invalid, because Bethesda never intended to design a multi-path branching questline game. Bethesda didn't even design or develop Fallout: New Vegas so it can't even be used as a precedent for them utilizing the game mechanics that you are asking for. It honestly truly amounts to the same thing as saying "Skyrim svcks, because Madden NFL has better football mechanics than Skyrim". You paid $60 to buy Skyrim as it is, not for Skyrim to be catered to your every want and desire.

Now, where the customer has a little bit more pull is with MMO's, because you are a recurring customer, and if the company wants to keep your business, they would do well to continue to meet the customer's wants and demands. Even then, you still don't have some twisted entitlement for the company to cater to you and only you, and if you don't like the direction the company is taking with their product, you simply cease to continue paying them to use their product.

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to a product that I am not satisfied with, I get a lot more satisfaction out of simply no longer using that product, and if it's bad enough, or my experiences with the company set a bad enough trend, to no longer buy products from that company, and find something else that I do want to spend money on, instead of constantly whining and complaining about it. For example - Bethesda has pretty much earned my trust with 4 straight "favorite game of all time" titles, in Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and now Skyrim. All 4 of those games rank at the top of my "all time favorites" list, 1-4. On the other hand, anything that's release that has the "EA" logo on it has earned a high level of caution before I buy, because I have been burned many times in the past by EA games, particularly the Madden NFL series, but other games as well. I do not approve of their business tactics (buying out the exclusive NFL license so that other NFL games cannot be made, removing any and all competition), and because of those business tactics, I believe they intentionally create sub par products because they have no competition, and people will buy cuz hey, it's the NFL. So I am very weary of buying anything that is developed or distributed by EA, and require some heavy research into the product before I do so.

Many of my favorite video game series or movie series, or even musical artists, have become completely different than what I originally became drawn to. Metal Gear went from a semi-realistic espionage game to a very far out there, lame anime series. Considering how much I absolutely despise anime, and pretty much any form of Japanese entertainment, instead of constantly [censored]ing about what Metal Gear became, I stopped playing it when I realized it was no longer what I liked, and I found something that was more to my liking. That's when I found the Hitman series. I used to love the hell out of Linkin Park, and would always buy their CD's, DVD's, and go to concerts. Then, I didn't like the direction they took with their music. Instead of whining and crying about it with some invalid sense of entitlement that they should make music the way I want them to, I stopped buying their CD's. I hate what the Terminator movie series became, starting with Terminator 3, instead of whining about it with some invalid sense of entitlement, I just stopped going to see Terminator movies and buying them when they came out on DVD.

Just because you pay money for something doesn't mean you are entitled to getting every single last one of your wishes and desires met. You pay money for a product as it is, that is all you are entitled to. If you don't like it, you stop using that product and go on to something else, you don't whine and cry to the company because they didn't make the product exactly the way you wanted it, when what you wanted was never what they were intending in the first place.

I don't think "functional" is the right word. Skyrim as it is is functional for most people, despite its bugs. But the fact is that we're entering patch 1.6, and I don't there should be bugs at this point. Especially the small bugs, like Brand-Shei or the Jeweled Pitcher in the Ragged Flagon Cistern not showing up after 75 jobs. These may be minor bugs, but they shouldn't have been there in the first place and they certainly shouldn't have been there 6 months after the game has been released. There are lots of bugs that haven't been addressed for consoles, and the only reason they are addressed on the PC is the community deciding to fix the issues themselves.

Same here - Skyrim and brief moments of JC 2

Thing is, games are never going to be 100% bug free, it doesn't matter how many patches exist out there. Morrowind still has bugs, Oblivion still has bugs, and Skyrim will always have bugs. It's the nature of the beast.

So you think it's fair to have the consumers fix the product they were sold because programers didn't do their jobs properly?

Do you have ANY idea of complicated of an issue that is?

I did not mean to be accusatory of you I was using the first line as a generalization nothing more.

I was referring to "pointing the finger" because there is a lot of those on here that do that for blindly defending something in this game that is obviously flawed or something like that.

When it comes to actually coding, no, I have absolutely no idea how complicated that is. I did digital animation for a while, and just creating a simple walk cycle was a nightmare for me.

If you're talking about the social contract between Bethesda and its consumers, I don't think the issue is complicated at all. They owe us a fully functional game free of game breaking bugs and glitches, and only a few, very minor bugs (if any at all). 6 months after their release date they have failed to uphold their end of the contract.

If you're referring to the hoops Sony and Microsoft make developers jump through to patch their games, I can't say I know anything about that, but I imagine that there wouldn't be much of an issue if they had programed the game properly.

And if you're talking about taking the unofficial patch and applying it to consoles, I'm afraid I don't know much about that either. However, once I again I put forth the theory that if the game did not have so many bugs when it was first released there would be no need for such actions to begin with.

I think it's a little weird someone could have not a single complaint about something even just looking at the perk tree there are just glaringly weird things about it.
Illusion tree for instance the game was suppose to be moving away from level scaling with the except of magicka use/dual overcast the entire rest of the perks is about level scaling spells. I been playing the last two titles and I have zero idea about how to even use the illusion magic in this game how are you even suppose to be able to figure out if what you are fighting is within the right level of using the spell at all.
The smith perk system is a nightmare for min/max players why in good faith would there ever be a heavy armor up the light armor side of the tree? It makes no sense none of the armor perks give a bonus for wearing the two different types if just begs you to pick one or the other and wear a full set of it. Why would anyone want to go up the light side of the tree when armor is usually for a weapon user and the best weapon is up the heavy armor perk side.
The armor skills are really redunant now that I think of it light armor has 2 perks heavy armor doesn't have, heavy armor has like 4 perks light doesn't have, and everything else is exactly the same.

Now I'm not trying to complain about that what I think is really complaint worth is the block perk tree, it's really bugged in many ways. Argonian characters can't use disarming bash, no reason for it. The perk that lets you move faster when blocking stops working. There is just a lot of broken stuff there.

Hi there Nell2ThaIzzay! How have you been doing? Great, I hope. It's good you're around.

Paying customers have earned their right to complain, but that in itself, per se, does not mean they are right in their complaints. Take allegations the product is not performing as advertised. I myself have had a somewhat smooth PC experience, but I'm affraid not all console gamers can say the same. Now, as for features, remember dynamic snow, dynamic economy? The last set of complaints deals with what one might call conceptual direction, i. e., overarching choices Todd made that, plausibly, could have gone the other way. Most forum lapidation appears to be directed at these, when, in fact, it could be argued this kind of criticism is what helps devs the most. All in all, asking for others to stop complaining is futile and pernicious. It will never work on a public forum and Im quite satisfied by that. You happen to think this or that complaint holds no water? Well then do not take the easy way out and ask such poster to leave the thread. Instead, defeat his statements on the rhetorical plane, that is, if you can. Lastly, the very fact Bethesda pays from its own pocket to maintain this forum goes to show which side of this argument it is probably betting its money on.

Well said.