[u gone see]

I don't understand - I thought that was exactly what it is. I mean, that's what DLCs and expansions are, and effectively the game itself. The programmers make the GECK and then the designers build the game. What the designers build the game with is - to my knowledge - the same tool that gets released to the modding community, albeit a couple of functions are locked off for legal reasons (the havok/speedtree stuff). The rest of it, though, that's what we have.

You are right on the mark Princess Stomper, and by that same logic, every ESM and ESP made for Fallout3 is a plug-in with the sole exception of the hardcoded Fallout3.esm.hardcoded references which we can't edit. Even the Fallout3.esm master file is not Required for the engine to work - which speaks to just how powerful and versatile the GECK/FO3 engine really is.

The only Key difference between the GECK we get to play with and the GECK that Bethesda (and I'm sure Obsidian) use is Version Control. We know for a fact based on records and broken references that the GECK was actually built to work with some kind of version control system (if its not built right in). This allows a large team of people to work on the same content - which is Not something that Bethesda would want to release to the public. Its really a touch of strategic genius in my view, that Bethesda realized that they could release the GECK with nearly all features turned on - just so long as the Version Control wasn't enabled. Without version control, it is extremely difficult for a team of modders to work on the exact same content - and it would be Impossible to do so had ElminsterEU not developed Fo3Edit (which I'm sure Bethesda didn't count on). Even so Fo3Edit is not a version control system, and its not built-into the GECK. This is the touch of genius - Beth was safe in releasing their best game-building technology, fully knowing that without version control, it would be pretty much impossible for another Group to build as fast as they can with version control built right into the GECK.

I have been absolutely in Love with the GECK since it's release, thats no secret (and Today marks my 1 year anniversary with working on it Daily with few exceptions). It makes me even more thrilled that I can continue modding all next year and my content will Not go out of date - because another major game is coming out based on the same engine, which will get the community spun-up again even after most people stop playing Fallout3 - it gives the engine/GECK more longevity than it would otherwise have.

Hopefully Obsidian's DLC will be as large as the Fallout3 game in size - that would be another winner IMHO.

Miax

[Rebecca Clare Smith]

*Nope, nothing here *

[Rude Gurl]

No, from my understanding the GECK they released is definitely not the same platform they used to make the game. It is very much scaled down. Unless you thing the Devs them self have to come up with strange ways to get around the hardcoding they apparently didn't put in themselves. If we're using the same GECK why can't we change those very settings?

Because you're talking about two totally different processes.

The designers work with the same GECK we do, with all the same hardcoded functions we have. If they want something to change, they need to apply to the programmers for a new scripting function in the GECK. That's why each time something comes out with a new function, we get a new update for the game - and normally a new GECK to go with it. Remember they updated the GECK after the DLCs came out?

They get the new GECK with the new features so that the designers can make the game; then we get that GECK with those features so we can use them.

The only Key difference between the GECK we get to play with and the GECK that Bethesda (and I'm sure Obsidian) use is Version Control. We know for a fact based on records and broken references that the GECK was actually built to work with some kind of version control system (if its not built right in). This allows a large team of people to work on the same content - which is Not something that Bethesda would want to release to the public. Its really a touch of strategic genius in my view, that Bethesda realized that they could release the GECK with nearly all features turned on - just so long as the Version Control wasn't enabled. Without version control, it is extremely difficult for a team of modders to work on the exact same content - and it would be Impossible to do so had ElminsterEU not developed Fo3Edit (which I'm sure Bethesda didn't count on). Even so Fo3Edit is not a version control system, and its not built-into the GECK. This is the touch of genius - Beth was safe in releasing their best game-building technology, fully knowing that without version control, it would be pretty much impossible for another Group to build as fast as they can with version control built right into the GECK.

Ummmm ... I'm really not thinking there's any "strategic brilliance" at work here. As you said, FO3Edit provided a workaround so their evil plan was quickly foiled; just as TES4Edit and MWEdit opened up functions in previous games. I do seem to recall devs saying on the forums before that our fan-made workarounds are often more user-friendly than the ones they use themselves. I would find it far easier to believe that they're using their own FO3Edit that's not as good as Elminster's, which is why they never bothered to release it. Have you noticed how none of the DLCs interact with each other? You'd think that they'd do that if they could - they're clearly bound by the same limitations we are. I remember very clearly the conspiracy theories surrounding the broken lipsync function in Oblivion and the howling that it had been disabled because the devs were threatened by the skills of the modders. None of that took into account how out of all the Oblivion DLCs, only SI and KOTN had new dialogue - none of the others had any spoken lines, which rather confirmed they were in the same boat as the rest of us.

Having multiple people working on a mod at the same time wouldn't even make much of a difference anyway - taking the Lokken Mountain example again, Teutonic made the island and then Emma made the mod - a full 30-hour quest with hundreds of NPCs and thousands of lines of dialogue - entirely alone. Hell, even I could knock up a substantial landmass (200+ cells), over 300 NPCs and several hours of quests all on my own. Sure, it took a couple of years, but people were still playing the game. I don't think anyone decided not to buy an expansion because of my mod or anyone else's mod. I haven't heard of one lost sale of Bloodmoon because of Wizards' Islands, even though that introduced snow even before Bloodmoon did.

The thought that mods somehow act in competition to DLC/game sales becomes even less persuasive when you look at the ratio of PC sales to other platforms - it's a small minority, ergo most players cannot use any mods at all. Of those, only a fraction do use mods, and even fewer make them.

Yes, it's a terrifically fun hobby and I really enjoy using and making mods - but I'm struggling to see any link between my unquestionable genius at creating pink rugs in the living room, and anyone being talked out of buying New Vegas.

[Blessed DIVA]

No, from my understanding the GECK they released is definitely not the same platform they used to make the game. It is very much scaled down.

This. Also Obsidian has the source code to Fallout 3.

edit: and the engine code.

[Lizs]

Ummmm ... I'm really not thinking there's any "strategic brilliance" at work here. As you said, FO3Edit provided a workaround so their evil plan was quickly foiled; just as TES4Edit and MWEdit opened up functions in previous games.

It really doesn't foil their plans, using Fo3Edit to merge mod content is not simple and only a few folks use it regularly for managing mod content. It works, but it would quickly fall apart if you had dozens people working on the same area content at the same time. With FOOK they came close in adding alot of Different smaller changes into one giant mod pack, but thats not the same as building up an area from scratch and having many people work on it simultaneously. And furthermore there are still hooks in the GECK to their version control, so it was definitely there - and the devs took the time to disable it before releasing it for Some reason? I think it was quite smart of them, is All I am saying.

Yes, it's a terrifically fun hobby and I really enjoy using and making mods - but I'm struggling to see any link between my unquestionable genius at creating pink rugs in the living room, and anyone being talked out of buying New Vegas.

I think you mis-understood the point of my post.

Miax

[Trevor Bostwick]

I think you mis-understood the point of my post.

Possible. I guess posts like this all just blend into one after a while: conspiracy theories from frustrated modders who firmly and unswervingly believe that limitations of the construction kit are part of some devious plan by Bethesda to prevent fans from competing with them by creating works of unquestionable genius that would undoubtedly appear the minute the real GECK would be released, and not this fake GECK that they gave us instead. This all in contrast to the rather less exciting image of a bunch of overworked, overtired devs who face the same challenges and obstacles we do but tend to do better at it because they beat all the other applicants in the first place in order to get that job. The "version control" thing is what I can assume is the isolation method they introduced after Morrowind to avoid conflicts and accidental overwrites between mods? Either way, the implication is that it was done as some kind of deliberate limitation to stop modders from collaborating on mods, which is just ridiculous - as well as rather nasty when you think about it. There's already so much we can do with the GECK that any question that this one tiny aspect had been deliberately introduced to stump us just defies all logic. The biggest barrier to collaboration between modders is other modders - which is why I almost always mod alone.

I'm just trying to think of any kind of simile to sum up the unease I have about these accusations. I can't think of any sort of example to give right now, where there's something where people ask for something off someone, and it's just a small number of people and it's going to be a lot of work, so the person says, "OK, we'll see," and then they make the time to give it, because it costs them time and effort but it doesn't really cost them anything major and the people will appreciate it and it's a nice thing to do, so they do it, and then those people just start picking it apart and accusing them of not giving them the right thing or deliberately making it wrong in case by some tiny miracle one of those people is going to make something better than the original person and that is going to make people not like that person any more. Like, wait: how did that happen? How did it get turned around from being this really nice thing to do to someone to "we'd better not give them everything in case one of them turns out to be this genius who's better than us"? It's just ... wrong. You might not think you mean it like that but that's how it comes across. It's like someone cooked you a nice meal and you're picking it apart looking for poison.

Anyway, the really major point is - we're getting really off-topic here for New Vegas.

I'm pretty sure that the answer to the question of "are the NV developers using the same GECK as us fans" is probably yes, and that Obsidian will do better with it than any of us for much the same reason that Lady GaGa is a better singer than I am: she gets paid to be good.

[Robert]

The retail GECK is almost identical to the dev GECK. Version control is the one very notable difference. Obviously having access to the source code allows Bethesda to build-in/retrofit for things that designers can't do through the GECK itself, which endusers can't do.

Believe me -- we had the same sort of problem when NWN2 was released. People insisted that we could not possibly have made NWN2 with the retail toolset. To an extent, that's true; for most of development, the NWN2 toolset was actually much, much worse.

[Emma Copeland]

Possible. I guess posts like this all just blend into one after a while: conspiracy theories from frustrated modders who firmly and unswervingly believe that limitations of the construction kit are part of some devious plan by Bethesda to prevent fans from competing with them by creating works of unquestionable genius that would undoubtedly appear the minute the real GECK would be released, and not this fake GECK that they gave us instead.

...

I'm just trying to think of any kind of simile to sum up the unease I have about these accusations. I can't think of any sort of example to give right now, where there's something where people ask for something off someone, and it's just a small number of people and it's going to be a lot of work, so the person says, "OK, we'll see," and then they make the time to give it, because it costs them time and effort but it doesn't really cost them anything major and the people will appreciate it and it's a nice thing to do, so they do it, and then those people just start picking it apart and accusing them of not giving them the right thing or deliberately making it wrong in case by some tiny miracle one of those people is going to make something better than the original person and that is going to make people not like that person any more. Like, wait: how did that happen? How did it get turned around from being this really nice thing to do to someone to "we'd better not give them everything in case one of them turns out to be this genius who's better than us"? It's just ... wrong. You might not think you mean it like that but that's how it comes across. It's like someone cooked you a nice meal and you're picking it apart looking for poison.

Wow. Yes you Very much mis-understood what I was trying to say, they have nothing to do with accusations. I was trying to compliment Bethesda on what I and alot of us modders think is a version control system, which is a very powerful feature for software development groups. Instead you take it akin to picking them apart and looking for poison? Thats rather harsh if I may say so, I think you should read the post again and then do some reading on what Version Control is, they are very powerful - especially groups that develope software professionally. I use them every day at work, and there's an http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1044545&hl=version+control on the subject in the GECK forum if your interested in learning about our, "Conspiracy Theories". I'm not sure how you got to your above conclusions from me trying to pay Bethesda a compliment, and I really don't relish the idea of having to defend myself to a moderator in the forums over and over on the same subject - so lets just chaulk it up at, "We miscommunicated" and leave at that?

Miax

[saxon]

That's the first time I've ever been called a conspiracy theorist.

[sam smith]

I'm just trying to think of any kind of simile to sum up the unease I have about these accusations. I can't think of any sort of example to give right now, where there's something where people ask for something off someone, and it's just a small number of people and it's going to be a lot of work, so the person says, "OK, we'll see," and then they make the time to give it, because it costs them time and effort but it doesn't really cost them anything major and the people will appreciate it and it's a nice thing to do, so they do it, and then those people just start picking it apart and accusing them of not giving them the right thing or deliberately making it wrong in case by some tiny miracle one of those people is going to make something better than the original person and that is going to make people not like that person any more. Like, wait: how did that happen? How did it get turned around from being this really nice thing to do to someone to "we'd better not give them everything in case one of them turns out to be this genius who's better than us"? It's just ... wrong. You might not think you mean it like that but that's how it comes across. It's like someone cooked you a nice meal and you're picking it apart looking for poison.

This is kind of unfortunate.

Aside from the throwaway "You can't please everyone" as it pertains to any product, as a consumer of several of the fan made mods created with the GECK, along, obviously, with lots of time and sweat, I can assure you that I ahve greatly enjoyed these mods, regardless of my inept and frustrating attempts at using the toolset.

I would also suggest that ROI on the toolset, in terms of added shelf life, makes releasing it easily justifiable. It certainly provides the content that keeps me playing both Oblivion and FO3.

[Ashley Tamen]

Wow. Yes you Very much mis-understood what I was trying to say, they have nothing to do with accusations. I was trying to compliment Bethesda on what I and alot of us modders think is a version control system, which is a very powerful feature for software development groups. Instead you take it akin to picking them apart and looking for poison? Thats rather harsh if I may say so, I think you should read the post again and then do some reading on what Version Control is, they are very powerful - especially groups that develope software professionally. I use them every day at work, and there's an http://www.gamesas.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=1044545&hl=version+control on the subject in the GECK forum if your interested in learning about our, "Conspiracy Theories". I'm not sure how you got to your above conclusions from me trying to pay Bethesda a compliment, and I really don't relish the idea of having to defend myself to a moderator in the forums over and over on the same subject - so lets just chaulk it up at, "We miscommunicated" and leave at that?

Miax

OK, we can call it a miscommunication. I just read that you thought that it was "strategic genius" not to allow modders to work collaboratively together (something you find frustrating, and use tools to get around), saying that allowing modders to work together at the same time is "not something that Bethesda would want", and that "fully knowing that without version control, it would be pretty much impossible for another Group to build as fast as they can with version control built right into the GECK", which reads to me exactly as though it was an anti-competitive move. I have read dozens if not hundreds of posts over the years from other members accusing Bethesda of releasing "gimped" tools to the public to deliberately restrict the endeavours of a modding public they secretly fear. "...so it was definitely there - and the devs took the time to disable it before releasing it for Some reason? I think it was quite smart of them, is All I am saying" is undeniably meant to draw the reader to a conclusion that is left ambiguous. If you think the very logical conclusion I drew was misplaced, I'll take your word for it. As I said before, this is now off-topic. I'm happy to answer questions via PM (though I think we've both stated our cases) but we should continue to discuss New Vegas from this point on.

The retail GECK is almost identical to the dev GECK. Version control is the one very notable difference. Obviously having access to the source code allows Bethesda to build-in/retrofit for things that designers can't do through the GECK itself, which endusers can't do.

Believe me -- we had the same sort of problem when NWN2 was released. People insisted that we could not possibly have made NWN2 with the retail toolset. To an extent, that's true; for most of development, the NWN2 toolset was actually much, much worse.

Ah, were you on the development team for NWN2 then? Thanks for the info.

[jessica sonny]

this lack of news for fallout new vegas makes me a sad panda. im sick of the speculation atleast release some concept art or something!

A sad panda indeed :sadvaultboy:

Most likely we will not get any solid news until a big event where they blast it in your face. Much like the big reveal of fallout 3, fallout new vegas will take the same route (most likely).

At least i can stay consistently excited about M:E 2 because they trickle new and exciting info every now and then, wish obsidian and Beth would take the same route.

[Marilú]

At least you guys know the name of the next Fallout...

Damn Bethesda and their smart business ways.

[luis ortiz]

bethesda's approach to PR is silly. or, rather, pete hines is silly. the complete lack of any information at all other than "hey there's a new Fallout game coming" puts all those BETHESDAS MILKING FALLOUT FOR ALL ITS WORTH outcries to rest, though!

also it's been a while since i played NWN2 - how good are Obsidian's animators? what are the odds NV's animations won't be as terrible?

[cutiecute]

bethesda's approach to PR is silly. or, rather, pete hines is silly.

Seems to be working out just fine for him and Zeni.

[Hannah Barnard]

I don't think it's necessarily such a bad thing to withhold information until it's just about ready to go gold. That's been a problem with a lot of games that come out these days - they get over-hyped. For some games, as well, so much can change from the early development stages to what actually comes out that it leaves people expecting a game that's really very different from what they'd seen a number of years before (like Spore, for example; or Fable - Moylneux is pretty well infamous at this point for promising the moon and the stars and not really delivering...)

It's going to be a lot like Fallout 3, I'd imagine - I can wait to learn the rest until the game is closer to shipping. (Especially since I'll likely be buying it regardless of what or how much info I have on it...)

[Makenna Nomad]

I'm happy to answer questions via PM (though I think we've both stated our cases) but we should continue to discuss New Vegas from this point on.

I hardly think that will be necessary, I've noted your opinion and filed it accordingly.

Back on topic, I have full confidence that Obsidian will produce a game that is every-bit as rich and wonderful as Fallout3 was - and I'm still every bit convinced that version control and the ability to work seamlessly as a large team is key to that success. Does anyone know off-hand about how many troops Obsidian has put into making New Vegas? Did they throw in a huge team/all the folks they had or is a development team like the DLC's were when created? I hope its Dozens!

@nu_clear_day, I think your right on with the release of news - it could be counter-productive given the final game may come out differently then even the developers think when they start building it. I rather enjoy Steven King's anology on how he writes books - starting with a vague idea and having no idea how the story will really end - until he writes it. With all the interaction and debate that goes on in game-teams, I think it would be almost impossible to predict exactly how the game will come out, which will be the best parts and which the filler etc. IMHO prefer the surprise.

Miax

[CArla HOlbert]

Back on topic, I have full confidence that Obsidian will produce a game that is every-bit as rich and wonderful as Fallout3 was - and I'm still every bit convinced that version control and the ability to work seamlessly as a large team is key to that success. Does anyone know off-hand about how many troops Obsidian has put into making New Vegas? Did they throw in a huge team/all the folks they had or is a development team like the DLC's were when created? I hope its Dozens!

IIRC, I remeber reading that most of the Aliens RPG team was transferred to NV. Don't know the exact # of members though.

I think your right on with the release of news - it could be counter-productive given the final game may come out differently then even the developers think when they start building it.

It's been hinted that the way damage is calculated might change for NV, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_Threshold might be making a comeback.

source: the vault

[Penny Courture]

If so...*does a happy dance* now here to hoping they put in the multiple ammo types and damage types to go along with all that!

[Matt Gammond]

It's been hinted that the way damage is calculated might change for NV, http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_Threshold might be making a comeback.

Well, JE could just be venting his frustration that Bethesda is forcing their hand on keeping F3's system. I hope not though, cause I sure agree with him. Armor damage threshold does feel better.

[Leticia Hernandez]

Is Damage Threshold when you don't take damage if the attack is below a certain number of hit points?

Because that would be GREAT and make it way more realistic.

[Harry-James Payne]

Is Damage Threshold when you don't take damage if the attack is below a certain number of hit points?

Because that would be GREAT and make it way more realistic.

Exactly. It is particularly noticeable in PA, it doesn't really make sense you get damaged by bare fists while wearing one for instance. It also makes wearing one a whole more meaningful! :shifty:

[[ becca ]]

We really need damage threshold back, but that's only one of the reasons why power armor was so useless in Fallout 3. The others of course being the ridiculous agility penalties, and hard coded slow down of any armor marked off as power armor.

[Paul Rice]

Yeah, damage threshold would be cool.

[Multi Multi]

How do we beg Obsidian to bring it back? Because I hope, that if they don't add it to the game, that someone will then make a mod which adds it for us