Compared to Fallout 3's ability to let you explore at any level. In FO3 you can explore right off the bat, because the game is much easier, yes, but it is also designed with freedom in mind. This was fun for me as I get bored of playing one build, and I like to make the most of my sandbox games. I find fun in going back and playing a new character in a new way I.E. a demolitionist or a melee bruiser. In Fallout 3 enemies scaled with your level, so if you ran into a super mutant at level 3, you could beat him down with only a baseball bat on your back. You could do the same with only a 10mm pistol, or a frag grenade, a sneak attack, etc. Basically, you were over-powered. But, that's what made the game fun in my opinion. NPCs would also get more difficult when you leveled up though, so the system worked. RPGs aren't about being difficult, atleast not the fun ones; when the game gets hard you just go back and level up some more, or change your strategy. It's completely different from the comparison of easy to hard in twitch based FPS games. In those games you have to be good at aiming, dodging, etc or you won't do well.

In Fallout: New Vegas I am hindered by the bugs at the moment. I can't bring my characters past Novac. I lock up during the Come Fly With Me quest/Helios One quests. So, I've been starting new characters with different builds that I would have gotten around to trying anyway, to save time and allow me to continue to play the game. Let me just say that in New Vegas you get punished for exploration. If you don't take the path to Novac via questing, you're going to run into deathclaws, cazzaros (sp) or giant radscorpions ALL THE TIME. Hell, I even got attacked by like 7 ceasar's legion guys once, and in hardscore mode that = instant death.

In the early levels, you just can't continue to fight 3-5 giant rad scorps all the time. It eats away your stimpaks and ammo, and if you're a melee character; forget it.

Please take note before you reply that I am not saying that New Vegas is a bad game, I love the game, it's a lot of fun. I am merely pointing out that in my opinion the game play is a lot more similar to Fallout 1 and 2. You had a big huge world to explore, but you couldn't explore it freely until you were powerful enough to survive.

I have just one more thing to say. Where are mods for melee weapons and explosives? Gun mods are everywhere in the game. Yet it would be easier to put nails in a baseball bat, but that isn't an option. How about tinkering with a grenade so that it detonates on impact, not on time, or has a more powerful explosion (more gunpowder)? What about a sticky bomb (ala Saving Private Ryan or Halo series) that sticks to your opponent and then detonates? These would be fun mods, but unfortunately only ranged weapons seem to have them. Then again, because of game crippling bugs I haven't been able to get past the Novac part of the storyline.

Basically, my complaint is that I'm starting over again (due to bugs) so I can continue to play my game, and when faced with exploration I am getting slaughtered by enemies way past my level. Sometimes right outside of the starting towns. If I want to level up, I need to follow the quests and storyline, or be an evil character and steal everything I come across (which I could do, I just don't want to). Basically I am feeling limited in what should be a game of ultimate glorious sandbox freedom.

I do agree that NV is better than FO3 in terms of voice acting and storyline. They're top notch. I just don't really like the world design and lack of freedom.

I don't see the problem.

My problem is, I don't want to do the same quests a 3rd time I've already done, in order to level up. I wanna just go out and explore and kill stuff. But I keep encountering things beyond my level. The freedom to explore is crippled. You have to do the quests.. again. Or steal a lot of stuff to pay for loads of stims and ammo.

I agree. One could pretty much ignore the main quest in Fallout 3. I can try to merely explore, but sooner or later I am either in over my head or I end up completing parts of the main quest. For example, on my second play through, I decided to stay at the southern portion of the map. I stumbled upon the irradiated Camp Searchlight and I was not ready for all of those RADs.

The map in Fallout 3 had a east to west orientation, which covered a lot of area and felt expansive. The north to south map of Fallout: New Vegas feels narrow and constricting.

Well the problem with being able to explore freely is that it means once you level up some the entire map would be a cakewalk with no challenge at all.

Edit: Unless they add *shudder* level scaling into the game and that take away any feeling that you're getting more powerfull because everything is the same challenge to you no matter what your level, unless you ignore your combat skills in which case you'll be knackering yourself.

It's not as sandboxy/open world as some, but once you're familiar with stuff, it's not too much issue leveling up even while skipping starter town, Primm, Novac, etc. & without stealing. Keep in mind a lot of exp. comes from completing quests, and not all quests have to be combat. Actually, imo most of this game really isn't very combat oriented. You can make it be combat oriented, but you can also avoid it 75% of the time and still level up.

But I do agree that on your first run through, there are definitely some wtf moments when you try to go off the beaten path too much early on. I think we've all had the "gee, I wonder if that 'danger' sign really means danger" experiment.

I dislike scaling enemies. I don't hate it, but I do dislike it a lot.

I wouldnt have it any other way. But yeah, it limits exploration at low levels. People have been able to shortcut to Vegas though.

The main quest is less linear but the world itself is more linear due to the way the game guides you through the world either with strong foes or natural/invisible barriers.

Exploration, in general, feels very absent in New Vegas. I expected it, but I don't like it, either, even though I am not surprised by it. It's a good game, in my opinion, but being the Bethesda fan that I am, I don't find it sating MY type of Fallout hunger all that much, which is to say I hunger for exploring the post-apocalyptic world of Fallout, and only Bethesda can really deliver a satisfying meal, for me. I'm not a fan of the old, story-based recipe of Fallout and I prefer Bethesda's recipe.

I think that (aside from some badly placed invisible walls) the exploration gains more than it loses from the way the world is designed. While you literally can't go off in any direction right away and expect to make it, you still have a lot of choice in what you do. Like people say, there is no need for you to do the quests as they appear if you don't want to. You can either skip them (because there are *plenty* of quests in New Vegas to undertake) or return later on. And the fact that there *are* dangerous areas gives the gameworld a lot more oomph and logic.
I think Fallout 3 (Oblivion was probably one of the worst offenders ever in this regard) felt way too tepid in how it flows with your character's levels.

Like I said, aside from some poorly placed invisible walls (I don't mind being stopped by mountains at all, but then they should be tall enough so that it doesn't appear like I *can* climb them, same with DC rubble in F3), I think it makes the gameworld make a lot more sense and makes it more exciting to go off the beaten path.
And while the gameworld isn't as open, the story and many quests are very non-linear in how you can approach them.

EDIT:

This is a bit off-topic but I see this every now and then. I really, really don't see how the Fallouts can be viewed as story-based. The games all have very simple premises, the player is almost never "led" along the way (unlike a Bioware game for example). It's very free-form stuff with very thing stories. In some ways, I'd say that F3 is the most story-based because of how it tries to involve you with your dad and the drama of that, purely story-driven sequences like when you get captured by the Enclave and so forth.

Very true Leinadi, although I think Oblivion is the worst offender in that regard at least that I'm aware of, as it was a fully level scaled world with I think everything in it being level scaled to the characters level, be it foes or even in some cases loot/quest rewards (aka the sword of a daedric prine being one of the prime examples, if you got it at low level and levelled up it turned out naff within several levels).

Thats what I like about New Vegas. It brings back the challenge. FO3 bugs be because its to easy. I can win the game at a very low level. Fallout IMO is not meant to be a "sand box game." If you run into something beyond your level then go back and think of away to kill it. Find many some of the many unmarked quests that New Vegas has. Quests that aren't "Good" or "Evil." New Vegas for me gives me plenty of ways to waste time doing "sand box" things. I go hunting, drinking, gambling and mess around with landmines. If your problem is "its to hard" then lower the setting to easy.

The game is definitely more linear at the start of the game, until you go the round-a-bout way to New Vegas. Once you deal with Benny in one way or another, the game is less linear. That's how I feel about it at least. I've completed the game twice now (once for NCR, the other for Caesar's Legion), and am currently on my third play-through and im still finding locations I didn't find in my first two runs.

And that is why Bethesda's games have level scaling instead of fixed monsters. The world is open and free to explore. This game was designed the old-timey way, you'll have to wait for TESV and/or Fallout 4 for open ended gameplay.

I really hope FO4 is the same as FO New Vegas. I want fixed mosters and areas I can't go without getting my butt kicked. Its the way the Originals have it. Makes the game more of a challenge. Makes me think!

the oblivion/Fo:3 levelling system is a pox on these games and hopefully the devs will learn their lesson from these games and NEVER repeat the mistakes they've made.

Do you what game was linear? FO3!

I was railroaded into helping those idiots at the BOS. I wanted to help the Enclave, America, my country. But guess what? I couldn't! I was FORCED to help the BOS destroy the Enclave.

I do hope you are wrong. Since I rarely play any game more than one time through, I enjoy being able to visit and explore as I go because otherwise I don't see much of the game. For instance when I am done with NV I may play through once or twice more but I won't be back tracking just to explore. The exploration is dead for me after my getting on with the main quest and since I can't go many places in the beginning to explore I will likely just finish the game and miss the small and oft cool asides I would have found had there been a bit of leveled scaling to permit me to go exploring everywhere.

Mind you, the amount of scaling in Oblivion was a bit much and a bit unbalanced but the no scaling in this game makes me feel herded into finishing the game instead of taking time to explore.

I love FO:NV, really I do but I do miss that aspect of FO:3. The exploration I speak of makes first person play worth having to me.

I personally HATE level scaling. I love having to wait before I can enter some place.

Only reason why I can think of for people wanting level scalling over fixed is because they want to level up and become gods faster. Best way to level up is to finish quests but its to hard to finish a quest were there are deathclaws :rolleyes: . So they want mole rates insted of deathclaws to be in that location when at a low level :banghead: Where's the challenge in a game like that? A game that holds your hand all they. And why do they want to level up fast and get all the perks? so they and run around do things that have nothing to do with the game :facepalm:

New Vegas is fun for me because its a challenge, I have to think, plan ahead. Watch my money, buy the right things. Yet it still has many things I can do to have fun other then the big quests, gamble, drink, six and alot of unmarked quests. FO3 is more of a mindless run and gun. I have not needed to buy one thing from any merchants in FO3 dring my play throughs because everything I need was right there for me on the ground. I could go to locations that should have well armed super mutants only to find a hand full of low level mutants with hunting rifles. Where's the fun in that? I love the originals and New Vegas because I can be walking over a hill and end up face to face with a deathclaw!.

Yup. In FO3 I never really feared anything..not even behemoths.

But in FNV...I nearly crap myself with a lvl 30 against a deathclaw or two.

They really should ditch the "one big map" system and offer the game (speaking of Fallout here) in chunks big enough to cover up the exploring inside certain level ranges that some people so eagerly wish; and to prevent, or at least lessen, the cries of "Why can enemies kill me?" And help the situation by putting more power to the difficultyslider. I see additional use of levelscaling in order to create a situation of "Go where ever you please without worries" as watering down the game.

I'm definitely going to have to disagree here, New Vegas is far less linear in almost every aspect. There's more choice in companions/they're easier to find (I never had a companion until Fawkes in FO3), the branching ends (4 different ways to side!), and you can actually be evil all the way through if you want without just doing a full switch at the end (since you can't even side with the Enclave in FO3 at all... but you can be an evil character and then at the very end just decide not to put the virus in the water to wipe out all mutants, bam, good ending). I suppose that yes, it seems like a set path is set out for you but even then, there's all sorts of choices early on. Help or wipe out Goodsprings, go after the slaves at that one town where you run into the Legion for the first time or leave em be, there's a little side exploring you can do that won't wander you straight into a Cazador nest or Deathclaw sanctuary.

I'm with everyone on the other part too, so you'd like to walk into the Quarry 12 minutes into the game, pick up a sub machine gun and a fat man with maybe a young deathclaw and 6 radroaches attacking you? Where's the fun in that?

To play devils advocate yet again, one of the problems I can foresee with doing this is the open world devotees who want to be able to explore the entire game world inch by inch would absolutely loathe such an implementation and cry foul. Another would be that some would complain about being forced to 'fast travel' between the segments of world.

Personally it wouldn't bother me at all, plus they could hopefully use it to re-implement a 'true' random encounter system much like in Fallout 1, 2 and Tactics.

I hope we have Morrowind's levelling system. basically, most of the open world enemies are fairly close to your level, meaning you can play around the world living as any sort of character, but the dungeons held very strong enemies that you would have to level to defeat. Its a tight balance between giving you freedom and making it too easy, and I think Morrowind suceeded where Oblvion and fallout 3 went one way and New vegas went the other way.