How can you possibly RP in Skyrim? : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:07 pm

Ah, now I understand. The storyline is a bit thin and shallow?

It's not quite that. You can have a great game without a top notch story, I have stated my opinion several times that they have made a great action game. It's not the stories themselves, it's the consequences.
Say you make a Nord character, whose primary goal is kicking the Empire and the Thalmor out. You do the Stormcloak quests, then what? Very little has changed. The Imperial camps are still there, the officers still Immortal. You can't even play a little pretend, and make your own story about cleansing pockets of resistance after the war, because those camps are never removed.
I can understand someone not knowing you are Arch mage or head of the Thieves', but the whole province heard the Greybeards, so if you are really into the whole Dragonborn story, you have to actively ignore the fact no-one in Whiterun has a clue as to who you are after saving the world.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:55 am

It's a fair point that it seems only guards hear stories of your adventures, and even then get confused as to what point you're at.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:25 am

The court wizard isnt the only idiot (or brave guy).

White run: Battle born guy. Asks Greymane or battle born, than he goes on saying youre one of the stormcloak rebels. While Stormcloak guys walk around and you stand in front of him with stormcloak officer gear. He wears imperial armour, thats brave of him very brave.

Vilkas: I dont know this newcomer, he even says that after you have been made Than, Archmage and Stormblade.

Priest of Dibella: Calling you a disbeliever while you have just became an agent of Dibella, have her blessing and wear her amulet... say wut.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:48 am

1- You can't expect an NPC to change behaviour or dialog just because of what you are wearing. I mean, he really should NOT know that you are an archmage, or the leader of whoever. Maybe a mage, and that's all. I agree anyway that doing things like enter a city in full Forsworm armour, or walking in full Imperial armour inside a Stormcloack camp, SHOULD have consecuences.

2- What this game lacks is NPC "knowledge". I mean, this NPC you are talking about should show some respect after HE knows what you are, not because of what you are wearing or what you achieved somewhere else somewhen. On the opposite, guards know too much! So you just joined the Bards in Solitude, and when walking around in Riften you hear: "What is it, bard?"... A Guard from another city should only know that information if you tell someone in that same city. So it's OK if they all know in Solitude, but it would make sense to be saluted like that in Riften only after you talked to someone about it.

Also, there should be flags for certain NPCs, so once after they introduced themselves, they don't do it once and again... The only one I can forgive is Nils, who is old, and I let him tell me everyday who he is, and where he works.

But all this requires more and more coding, and time, and you know, the polish phase of this game would never end, therefor there wouldn't be a release either.

I like the game the way it is now. Of course it's not perfect, but those things are even funny when they happen, like the guards calling you "sneaky thief!" even if you are not one. I just guess they say it because they notice how silent I walk and move, thanks to my sneaking skill.

Um, all of them change their dialogue when you're in your underwear.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:56 pm

I like how there are some obvious issues in this game for AI and dialouge, yet it's apparently worse than a game with piles of repeated, written waffle shared between every NPC and no AI whatsoever, and a game where people constantly have nonsensical conversations with eachother about mudcrabs, where you persuade through a magic pizza slice minigame, where guards are psychic and can sense you committed a crime 100 miles away and where everyone of the same race shared the same voice.

My point is every game is flawed in some way. People are just picking on Skryim because it's the new kid, just like people picked on Oblivion back in the day.

Remember 6 months ago people were absolutely slating Oblivion's AI and dialogue, and other things too (gameplay, quests, landscape etc.). Since Skyrim people have turned to defending the very points that they criticised a few months back, which is really interesting.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:27 pm

Imagine harder.

See, I got these two things called imagination and creativity. Allows me to RP in just about any game I play.

yep, and considering it was done miles better in previous iterations (new vegas, fallout 3, even oblivion), how in the seven levels of hell did they manage to make it worse? Jesus, even in morrowind people greeted you based on you faction standing - 'hail spellwright of house telvanni' etc

Pffft... that's nostalgia speaking!

I agree but..
Answering to the question "How can you possible RP In skyrim?"
Trust me,you can almost RP in every game x) might sound stupid but...

It's actually not stupid since it's true.
Still, a game like Skyrim should make RPing much easier than other games do.
If it doesn't make it easier, then why should I spend my money on it?
In that case, I find it much better to spend my money on pencils and papers and RP with my friends.

Still, I play games in order to avoid contact with idiots (especially SP ones).
Skyrim surrounds me with them. >_>

OT:
Agreed.
I am also irritated by the fact that we can't make any changes in the world (which is totally idiotic in this case).
I mean, did anyone feel any difference in the world after defeating Alduin?
Did anyone feel any difference in the world after war was over (except guards changing)?
And what about the infamous cases of being and Arch Mage or Harbinger and everyone treating you like some random newbie?

Oh... and one of things which personally irritate me the most is the fact that GUARDS KNOW WHERE DARK BROTHERHOOD SANCTUARY AND THAT YOU ARE PART OF IT!
Same with Thieves Guild.
Well...

Spoiler

At least there is a mission which allows you to destroy DB since everyone knows where they hide.
Then why is there no mission to destroy TG also!?

So much things in Skyrim feel like crap compared to previous games.
I still have to play FO 3 & NV (was never into that series, but after reading some stuff about those games, I think I'll get my hands on them), but those games sound so much better than Skyrim and Oblivion.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:01 pm

Surely that's better than "NOPE you did EVERYTHING, game over!" Do bear in mind that you did have to complete quite the questline to get there, and do a lot of side contracts which weren't "the same people over and over". I'm glad the random quests are there to keep me occupied, if I get sick of them, well that's the time to start a new character. In previous TES games when I ran out of quests I did this anyway, so what's the drawback exactly?

I expected more since you're technically the boss of the dark brotherhood now. Creativity is the key. Where is the option of recurring people? Oh and the torture room is useless.... After you get done with your 4 victims that is it for the torture room.

I would've had liked if you can build up a business relationships with city jarls and other businessmen/women. Instead of speaking with the same people over again and killing the same looped people why not speak with jarls/businessmen in private to conduct business to kill someone that they're having a problem with? For an example if you side with the stormcloaks the ex former jarl of whiterun wants to seek revenge for his lost position, and so he contacts the thieves guild to steal valid information that Ulfric has. Since you and Ulfric are tight he wouldn't expect a thing. This also includes framing people too. How many times have you visit a jail (other than riften) to find them empty?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:39 pm

OT:
Agreed.
I am also irritated by the fact that we can't make any changes in the world (which is totally idiotic in this case).
I mean, did anyone feel any difference in the world after defeating Alduin?
Did anyone feel any difference in the world after war was over (except guards changing)?
And what about the infamous cases of being and Arch Mage or Harbinger and everyone treating you like some random newbie?

I'm irritated by the fact that nothing really changed after defeating Alduin. I mean is their no such thing as a celebration in skyrim? If you decided to go after Alduin first, and deal with the civil war later if you side with Ulfric during the Season Unending I would've had liked had he sent you an invitation (You would be stop by the mail man in whatever city that you're in) to come to Windhelm for a big celebration for defeating Alduin. I would've liked to see Ulfric and Galmar (after the party) to persuade me to join them in the civil war.. Vice vesa if you side with the Imperials.
Same with the end of the civil war. NO Parties? No celebrations? Nothing?!??!?!?!?!?!?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:39 pm

I heard people say they are roleplaying in Witcher 2 (a rail-roaded RPG), so I guess it's better to do that in Skyrim anyway

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:00 am

Ok let me just show you how.

This link takes you to a role-play I did of a Forsworn woman in Skryim. The role-play actually stayed very close to the Developers stories and Lore. The role-play comes complete with pictures and stories.

To be honest this was the most fun character I have played to date. Valshea (background in my gallery) was the second.

http://burhenn63.deviantart.com/gallery/34955467

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:30 pm

I will re-quote from my earlier post :

"Beth make the best worlds/backgrounds out there if you want annoy them on rpgcodex and do some make believe, but you are in a way doing some of the devs' jobs for them. I personally love their games for this, that's just me,but you shouldn't have to

There is no difference between RPing in this game vs any of game out there. RPing ALWAYS comes down to the imagination of the player. It is like then pen and paper dungeon and dragons. You aren't really doing anything other then keeping a list of stats, you are only given the tools to RP. You have to then use your brain to do the rest. This is no different then Skyrim, no different then the Witcher, no different then Dragon Age. In fact it is EASIER to RP in Skyrim because of it openess vs the Witcher or Dragon Age which, I am sorry many will disagree, are action adventure games where you play the story of a character not a true RPG where you define your role. Dragon Age is more RPG then the Witcher but still both are Action Adventure games.

Skyrim gives us the tools to RP, and it is by far the best game out there for RPing. If you can't use your brain to RP, then that is your fault. You are expecting a hand written story where you just follow along and feel like that is who you are, and if that is what you want go play Mass Effect or The Witcher 2. This isn't a rail-road, theme park game. It is a open world where you are only limited by your imagination. Sadly it seems many people are so lazy these days they can't muster up the strength to do that.

Ok let me just show you how.

This link takes you to a role-play I did of a Forsworn woman in Skryim. The role-play actually stayed very close to the Developers stories and Lore. The role-play comes complete with pictures and stories.

To be honest this was the most fun character I have played to date. Valshea (background in my gallery) was the second.

http://burhenn63.deviantart.com/gallery/34955467

Perfect example. I roleplayed a Imperial merchant who never raised a weapon in combat. It took a lot of imagination to make it work, but I had a blast doing it and it was the most unique experience I have ever had in a fantasy game. That I explored and adventured in this world as a lowly merchant who was weak and had no physical prowess.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:52 am

Unfortunately, people can't numerically increase and heavily perk their Creativity, Tolerance, Resourcefulness skills.

In all seriousness... you can role play in Skyrim if you're willing to harness the power of your imagination/capacity for forgiveness and forebearance, and actually make the effort. You are, believe it or not, in large part responsible for the enjoyment and satisfaction you derive from your personal pursuits. Take some time to review the works of folks like Roland Barthes and Stanley Fish. Novels, movies, and--to a ridiculous extent--video games represent an active exchange between the author/director/developer and the reader/watcher/player, and on a primal level, they don't exist until YOU interact with them. I'm probably not doing a great job of explaining this... Bottom line, if your goal is to an enjoy this or any game, you may need to bring a little more to the table than crossed arms and your "impress me" pants. If your goal is something other than enjoying the game, then I'm confident you'll be able to meet your goals far in excess of even your wildest expectations.

You can do it.

If you really, truly can't do it, then pretend you can do it.

If you can't even do that, complain to strangers on the Internet.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:07 am

I think that skyrim's npcs behavior are very realistic, we can see by this forum that people says that same thing forever, and dont mind any good post made before about the same issue.

"Nothing i do makes any difference, no one knows who I am". Well... if you get married, your wife will always recognize you as her husband, and ever will cook a meal for you. :biggrin:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:59 pm

Yeah, that'll solve all of Skyrim's issues.

We can just... imagine.

:wink:

And then we don't even need the game.

I do imagine. I did so in previous Elder Scrolls games. But previous Elder Scrolls games gave me more help in that area. Take much more help away, and the game isn't necessary, I'll just go back to the fantasies I have entertained myself with since childhood.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:55 pm

And then we don't even need the game.

I do imagine. I did so in previous Elder Scrolls games. But previous Elder Scrolls games gave me more help in that area. Take much more help away, and the game isn't necessary, I'll just go back to the fantasies I have entertained myself with since childhood.

What tools did the previous Elder Scrolls games give you that this one doesn't? I mean truly and honestly? The complaint I see is that NPC's repeat themselves over and over and that they aren't pyshics that magically know every heroic deed you have done. Other then that, I haven't seen any mention of these tools that Morrowind and Oblivion had. What you no longer have to have a spread sheet to makes sure you have a +5 +5 +5 leveling build? That makes you unable to RP? You no longer have things such as athleticism so you can't run around jumping from roof top to roof top so now you can't RP? I mean really what are these magical tools you are speaking of? This game takes no more effort then any other game on the market.

Hell it takes less effort to RP in Skyrim then it does at a dungeons and dragon game. This game takes no more effort then any other game and I would love to see all of you complaining about the lack of RPing play a round of DnD. If you think this game svcks because you can't put forth the effort to RP then you would hate DnD.

You are, believe it or not, in large part responsible for the enjoyment and satisfaction you derive from your personal pursuits ...... you may need to bring a little more to the table than crossed arms and your "impress me" pants.

Says it all. It's not the fact that people can't RP in Skyrim. It is the fact people are stomping their feet and acting like its Bethesda's job to RP for them. They gave you the tools, what you do with those tools is up to you. Just like DnD.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:45 am

There is no difference between RPing in this game vs any of game out there. RPing ALWAYS comes down to the imagination of the player. It is a like like dungeon and dragons. You aren't really doing anything other then keeping a list of stats, you are only given the tools to RP. You have to then use your brain to do the rest. This is no different then Skyrim, no different then the Witcher, no different then Dragon Age. In fact it is EASIER to RP in Skyrim because of it openess vs the Witcher or Dragon Age which, I am sorry many will disagree, are action adventure games where you play the story of a character not a true RPG where you define your role. Dragon Age is more RPG then the Witcher but still both are Action Adventure games.

We obviously have different definitions, not of what role playing is, but of what role playing in the context of a computer rpg is. Having free rein at character creation, and an open world, does not imply more of a role playing game than a fixed character semi linear world, which actually recognises your good/grey/evil -ness. It does mean you can pretend more, but there comes a point where you approach that imo ridiculous 'you can role play in shooters' argument.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:36 pm

What tools did the previous Elder Scrolls games give you that this one doesn't? I mean truly and honestly? The complaint I see is that NPC's repeat themselves over and over and that they aren't pyshics that magically know every heroic deed you have done. Other then that, I haven't seen any mention of these tools that Morrowind and Oblivion had. What you no longer have to have a spread sheet? That makes you unable to RP? You no longer have things such as athleticism so you can't run around jumping from roof top to roof top so now you can't RP? I mean really what are these magical tools you are speaking of? This game takes no more effort then any other game on the market.

Hell it takes less effort to RP in Skyrim then it does at a dungeons and dragon game. This game takes no more effort then any other game and I would love to see all of you complaining about the lack of RPing play a round of DnD. If you think this game svcks because you can't put forth the effort to RP then you would hate DnD.

The magical aspect that's missing is failure.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:52 am

Currently I am playing a female Bosmer named Fara who is an Archer character.

She was raised in Valenwood and holds very tightly so some of their older beliefs and traditions. For example she never uses a potion because they might have been made from plants. The only potions she will carry are those she takes off of spiders herself (poison). This leaves her only quick healing as meats and cheeses she finds or cooks herself.

To say the least it is making an interesting role-play as I never realized how dependant my characters were on potions before.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:36 pm

See, I got these two things called imagination and creativity. Allows me to RP in just about any game I play.

This. I love roleplaying in Pong.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:00 pm

This. I love roleplaying in Pong.

Not that hard. The enemy board is trying to lauch a nuke at your city, so you defend it by knocking the nuke back at him. If you fail and the nuke gets past you then your city is gone. See how I turned the most basic game into a war game with just a bit of imagination? And it didn't take much effort

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:23 pm

I think of it like this.

Bethesda wanted to make every quest radiant, they admitted as much, they found out this made quests bland and uninteresting. So they had to go back and hand write quests. Now, in my head, making computer generated quests would mean boring and bland quests. But Beth thought it was awesome. Remember the world generator from Daggerfall? We don't see that anymore do we? It was bland and boring. Lifeless.

What does this have to do with immersion as we have it now? I think so many things were tied into this radiant questing. The civil war, faction quests and endings, and even npc reactions. If quests are handled by a program instead of being hand written, it becomes hard to integrate changes into the radiant quest generater. The script becomes too big. So when they went back and started hand crafting the quests and endings, they didn't get a chance (maybe time constraints?) to really flesh some things out. Now, hopefully, in future games, they start with hand crafting the quests and npcs, and then do a little work with radiant quests. Not the other way around.

I mean how hard can it be to have an npc have an appropriate reaction to player guild status? Not very hard. I think they just didn't design the system like that until later when they were hand crafting quests, and for whatever reason just didn't get it done.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:21 pm

What tools did the previous Elder Scrolls games give you that this one doesn't? I mean truly and honestly? The complaint I see is that NPC's repeat themselves over and over and that they aren't pyshics that magically know every heroic deed you have done. Other then that, I haven't seen any mention of these tools that Morrowind and Oblivion had. What you no longer have to have a spread sheet to makes sure you have a +5 +5 +5 leveling build? That makes you unable to RP? You no longer have things such as athleticism so you can't run around jumping from roof top to roof top so now you can't RP? I mean really what are these magical tools you are speaking of? This game takes no more effort then any other game on the market.

Hell it takes less effort to RP in Skyrim then it does at a dungeons and dragon game. This game takes no more effort then any other game and I would love to see all of you complaining about the lack of RPing play a round of DnD. If you think this game svcks because you can't put forth the effort to RP then you would hate DnD.

Says it all. It's not the fact that people can't RP in Skyrim. It is the fact people are stomping their feet and acting like its Bethesda's job to RP for them. They gave you the tools, what you do with those tools is up to you. Just like DnD.

What's wrong with jumping from roof to roof? In Daggerfall, I would frequently load up the game and do nothing but climb and jump. It made me feel like an agile, young, athletic thief. What's good about npc's that are more robotic than in previous games? They sound like broken records. Give me text, and more in depth dialogue options back. What's wrong about being able to limit your character as we did in Daggerfall? You had both good and bad things to create your character, and it felt much more in depth. If I remember correctly, that was also true in DnD. The Elder Scrolls games have been progressing in graphics, and I suppose in fight mechanics (don't know much about that, or care), while going backwards in other areas, areas that are important to me. The point is, Bethesda is giving us less tools to roleplay with than previously.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:29 pm

What's wrong with jumping from roof to roof? In Daggerfall, I would frequently load up the game and do nothing but climb and jump. It made me feel like an agile, young, athletic thief. What's good about npc's that are more robotic than in previous games? They sound like broken records. Give me text, and more in depth dialogue options back. What's wrong about being able to limit your character as we did in Daggerfall? You had both good and bad things to create your character, and it felt much more in depth. If I remember correctly, that was also true in DnD. The Elder Scrolls games have been progressing in graphics, and I suppose in fight mechanics (don't know much about that, or care), while going backwards in other areas, areas that are important to me. The point is, Bethesda is giving us less tools to roleplay with than previously.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to jump from roof top to roof top. But it doesn't break the game and the ability to RP, unless you want to play an acrobat but honestly I never saw the point of that in Oblivion so maybe that is just me. I do agree, that there is no good/bad depth to the game. That does majorly dampen the morality choices in the game which would be one of the few gripes I had about the game. Sad to say but I think Fable, the first one, had the best morality of any RPG I have played. The fact that people would react to how evil/good you were. As for NPC's being robotic, not as much as Oblivion. Morrowind by far had the best NPC's of the series. The problem is though when you start adding voice acting to the game you are going to majorly limit yourself in what dialog options will be available. You can't have the in depth NPC conversations Morrowind had without have a 100gigs or more of nothing but voice acting. Even Star Wars the Old Republic which is praised for the amount of voice acting it has doesn't compare to the interaction you had with NPC's in Morrowind. Oblivion was as robotic if not worse then Skyrim. After downloading a mod that removes the 1 line phrases said every time you pass an NPC that problem quickly took care of itself. Now I know not everyone uses mods and people on consoles can't even if they wanted to, but mods fixed morrowind, they fixed Oblivion and they will fix Skyrim.

I still don't see the lack of tools to RP though, only tool you need is your brain the rest is fodder :/ I guess it is just a matter of opinion.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:10 pm

I will repeat my question.... How can you possibly RP in Skyrim?

Some say that you must use your imagination to survive in the world of skyrim, but what if you get nailed with a bug that you're unable to fix? Your imagination get violated and then you become frustrated over the bug that ruined your moment?

Just like now when I finished the No One Escapes Cidhna Mine quest.
http://youtu.be/2BmI9VbKbf4
Guards are continuing to want to arrest me, and when I surrender to them they keep looping. How can you use your imagination to avoid bugs?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:30 pm

lol I find it hilarious how some people will defend the game to the death and refuse to acknowledge its downsides. It was the same way with DA2 which is about 1000x more surprising. Still I find it surprising that game developers often handle criticism much better than ~~fanb…~~ certain players. Fact is the game refuses to respond to your actions in anyway which is weird considering how Beth made FO3 and had FONV to learn from. I guess they were a little afraid of going into that direction because of a certain group of people who would come out of the woodwork day one and say how Skyrim is just like FONV with swords.