That logic is ok until we consider that Ulfric may actually BE a Thalmor agent as his dossier says (broken by Elenwen and assigned to her as an asset only to grow uncooperative of late) in that case he probably wouldn't support the empire against the common foe at all if the destruction of the empire is the ultimate aim.

Ultimately everything we are told about the civil war's origins starts with Ulfric as the source.
Hod mentions "everyone had their little shrine to talos" and that enforcement of the concordat was practically non existent until the Stormcloaks started agitating about it.
Then we also had the Markath incident where Ulfric captures Markath and doesn't hand it back unless he gets his demand of free Talso worship, the jarl of course wanting his city back foolishly agrees. The Thalmor find out about this as was planned and send in the justiciar inquisitors to create even more resentment and support for Ulfric's cause so that he can launch his civil war.

in such a situation of a stormcloak victory and skyrim leaving the Empire Cyrodiil would be greatly weakened and ripe for conquest as much of the legion is made up of Nords, Ulfric might also be worried that once he wins the war that the Thalmor might double cross him and attack Skyrim anyway after they are done with defeating the remnants of the Empire.

The part about mentioning ""a stormcloak victory should be avoided" probably hints to the Thalmor thinking they cannot control Ulfric as a puppet and he will probably turn on them once he is high king. (and that they also want the sides in the civil war to be killing each other for long enough to weaken Skyrim as well as Cyrodiil for conquest)

Makes for an interesting thought.

Ulfric is not a Thalmor agent. If you read the dossier closely you'll find that he rejected any overtures the Thalmor made to him at Markarth, IIRC. He is an asset; there's a difference.

It's true that yes, the Thalmor consider a continued civil war in Skyrim to be to their advantage, making Ulfric an asset to them. Why? Because it weakens the Empire. While the Legion is distracted trying to put down a rebellion in Skyrim, they're not paying much attention at all to the Thalmor. They're not prepping for a second Great War. They're throwing men, supplies and money at an internal matter instead--instead of saving all those resources for what is likely to be a protracted, costly war with the Aldmeri Dominion.

All of that benefits the Thalmor. What they don't want is for the civil war to end, period, regardless of who's the victor. The dossier says as much. No matter how the war ends, as soon as it stops distracting the Empire their attention will shift to the Dominion. Meanwhile, assuming a Stormcloak victory, an independent Skyrim united behind the Stormcloak banner is going to be very anti-Thalmor indeed. Possibly enough to consider an alliance (however loose) with the Empire to take on the Dominion.

Basically, the Thalmor want the Empire running around chasing its tail for as long as possible. That is why they consider Ulfric an asset. The moment he wins or loses the war, he ceases to be useful to them in any capacity.

Ulfric is not an agent to the Thalmor. What the dossier technically says is that Elenwen (His torturer and interrogator) essentially broke him down through psychological manipulation to obtain useful information, and to feed him false information as part of brain washing him. He was allowed to escape soon after. Listing him as an “asset” does not mean that hes working for them. It means that hes doing what the Thalmor wants him to do from all of the brain washing that they did while he was being held captive.
The thalmor is loving this civil war between Ulfric and the empire because it benefits them a great deal.

On a serious note, Ulfric does use unrelenting shout >_>. Found this out the hard way...

BUT I HAVE MORE SHOUTS BUDDY HAHA.

He didn't even raise a sword when my imperial stormed in there. It's annoying because his corpse never cleans up.

Alvor mentions that, not Hod.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Markarth incident was the other way around from how you describe it.
Igmund asked Ulfric for help with the Forsworn, and instead offered a safe heaven where they can worship Talos. After the Forsworn were done with (and yes, the Thalmor found out), Igmund kinda betrayed Ulfric and handed him and his allies to the Thalmor...sure, Igmund was in a delicate position, would he not have arrested Ulfric he would have risked all out war with the Thalmor. But still, I think the situation should be presented as it happened.

Needs to also be considered that the markarth incident was only a year or two after the great war. The thalmor probably were still considering how they were going to handle their enforcement of the ban. Just because they showed up after the markarth incident is not indicative of them never showing up had it not happened. They would've come anyways because the WGC allows for it and free espionage opportunites and sowing discontent is conducive to their goals. Ulfric wasn't necessary at all, people just like to have something to pin the blame on.

You know now that I think of it why didn't High King Torygg spent time with the Greybeards to learn the Thu'um?

Greybeards are rather selective of who they're willing to train. It'd be nice if more nords started to learn their thu'um again. Not sure why the Tongues completely died out and just absorbed into the greybeards.

I'd say it's to emphasize on Dovahkiin's "being special" vibe. I find it very weird that just because an elite school opened everybody suddenly stop teaching their kids how to do maths

In the lore, there was supposedly an Imperial College of the Voice in Markarth, but I'd guess they cut that out for the same reason.

No, let's not shout at each other. Perhaps "many" is an exageration. From the perspective of a Nord Stromcloak it may be difficult to distinguish the two since both the Thalmor and the Empire are enforcing the White Gold Concordant in Skyrim, but I can see how an Imperial would take issue with that.

Back to the torture issue. I visited the dungeon in Wildhelm over the weekend and there are two torture racks in the dungeon, but there are no torture tools (tongs and the like) anywhere in the dungeon and there are no bloodstains on the torture racks. This indicates that the Stormcloaks are willing to use torture if necessary, since the have torture racks, but they are not actively using it and have no immiment plans to use torture.

The opening scene has two "Imperial Torturers" and evidence that several Stormcloaks had been recently tortured. There are no "Stormcloak Torturers" like the Imperial Torturers you encounter in the beginning and no evidence in the game that the Stormcloaks ever tortured an Imperial soldier.

So, the difference on the issue of torture is that the Stormcloaks might be willing to use torture, but only the Imperials and the Thalmor are actively engaged in an organized campaign of using torture on political prisoners.

Like nukes, right? Threat of usage is enough to make most people behave.

Uh. I wouldn't take it that way at all.... I'd simply assume their torturers had their own implements all wrapped up in canvas and taken home with them, or perhaps in some of the cabinets that can't be opened....

You cannot assume they have no imminent plans to use torture based on this kind of evidence, or that they aren't actively using their torture racks. For all we know the Stormcloak torturers are neat freaks who always clean up after every torture session, leaving no indication that anyone has been tortured.

As for their seeming lack of use, all I can say is that there are many ways to torture a person, both physically and mentally, and many do not require the use of tools you described. The only real limit to torture is the torturer's imagination.

Fine...fine. I'll come clean. I've got one set each in Breezehome, Proudspire, and Vlindrel and the Stormcloak guys come borrow them as necessary.

*giggle* I have a set or so around, just because I'm a pack rat....

Same here. I usually have them in the less than happy places. The Midden Dark next to the Daedric Artifact and the Atronach Forge, the Secret Room in Windhelm's house, the Dawnstar Sanctuary, and my home in Markarth. I tend to put a few giants' toes and saber cat eyes around them too for more of a "torture look" for the area.

I'm a pack rat also, but I have those because I'm a sick f.***.

Mine are all within arm's reach of my beds.

As part of my (imaginary for RP purposes) duties as a rising young Stormcloak hero, I just did a thorough inspection of Fort Greymoor, which was taken over by our troops some time ago after the Battle of Whiterun.

I can assure you without any hesitation whatsoever that the words "Stormcloak" and "neat-freak" do not belong on the same general plane of existence, much less in the same sentence.

Well it is true that the only real use of torture in the game, other than crazy mages and the DB, are the Thalmor and Sybille Stentor. I can't think of any other instance, anyway. If we look at a RL parallel, the use of torture against prisoners was more of a southern European thing and spread north from there and that was Roman inheritance (don't believe what you read about the Viking blood eagle- that is possibly a misunderstanding of skaldic metaphor).

Like I said upthread, though, that's all pretty thin and I imagine the Nords don't have many scruples where such things go. Not if they really had to use it.

Because the detachment of Stormcloaks stationed at Fort Greymoor perfectly represents every Stormcloak everywhere in Skyrim...

Generalizations still run strong it seems.

No, because the clearly indicates that it was a joke. Y'all need to lighten up. Sheesh.

Except that there are no Stromcloak torturers to be found any where in Skyrim. If your theory were true, there would be a house or other location somewhere in the game with a very neat and clean Stormcloak torturer there with his tools neatly packed away either on his person or stored somewhere. There is no such person anywhere in the game. If you find one, I would be very interested to hear about it.

Sigh....im guessing because paar influenced the old nords not to use their voice in battle because they lost one measyily war is why from then only the dragonborn can use shouts in battles when in the old days almost every nord used the shout.

Ulfric using the shout was a statement. Right now most of the nords in skyrim have gotten content and weak. Wtf happened to the battlelust or ferocious or notgearing death nords that u read about? Ths shout was a common weapon that it was expected that when nords atked ur city that they were gonna shout the walls down. The thuum isnt magic, well at least the nords dont see it that way. The thuum is a powerful weapon that strikes fear. Hell why do u think the nords respect the greyneards so much..its because of their power, they can shout u to death by just talking to ya. In skyrim, the nords respect power. And ulfric was using a weapon that used to be commoninly used strickly by nords and he shouted down the king to make a statement of were [censored] nords and were [censored] powerful. It gripped the people.
Ulfric coulda easily killed him in combat, problemly really quick and quite pathetic, at least ulfric gave the man a good death by shouting at him, would took away any sting or talk about how easily ulfric won. Honorable or not at least ulfric spared the king a embarassing death.