I love how people justify killing someone.

I guess it's time I pay Paarthurnax a visit. I will end his poor existance as a Dovahkiin before the Blades finally get him. I gonna shout him to death like the Nords like it.




PS. I don't think the Greybeards approve what Ulfric did. They trusted him, that's why they tought him in the first place. He betrayed that trust.

Once peoe realize that the politics, morals, and way of life in real life are drastically different than how normal life and such are in the game. Get immersed in the different way of life and leave real life at the door. Makes playing either side more understandable.

Ulfric himself admits that Arngeir has probably never forgiven him for what the Greybeards would no doubt consider his "blasphemy" in using the Thu'um for anything other than the worship of Kynareth. He also states his reasons for leaving High Hrothgar when he did and for having fallen from their strict discipline. I found the whole conversation rather moving, especially given his overheard remark that he would "gladly retire from the world" if the day came when warriors were no longer needed. He also talks, somewhat wistfully IMO, about how HH is so "disconnected" from the world of action and conflict.

My interpretation has always been (even on first playing through that conversation) that he left High Hrothgar with some regret and still feels badly about it, but that he believes the Thalmor and Dominion were and are too great a threat to be ignored. He had to choose between the path of action and the path of meditation, not as the child who first climbed the 7000 steps but as a man watching the world he loves torn apart beneath them.

And please note the "as a child" part of that last sentence. Ulfric speaks of being chosen by the Greybeards when he was "just a lad," i.e., still a child. Whether this means that they sought him out on their own accord, or that his family put him forward as a candidate for training and the Greybeards chose to accept him, or that he himself wanted to join their order and both his family and the Greybeards agreed to it... the exact mechanism of how he ended up at High Hrothgar as a child is unclear. In any case, he was still just a child.

So maybe the Greybeards need to have a little accountability on the issue of Ulfric's "failure" to adhere to their teachings over the long haul. He was a child when he was called, or sent, to High Hrothgar. They were far older and presumably wiser. They are the ones who chose him, or at least accepted him for training, at an age when it was impossible for him to know whether or not he would grow into the kind of person for whom that life was appropriate or acceptable or even tolerable. It would've been impossible for them to know as well, but they were the advlts in the equation. IMO the bulk of the responsibility for accepting an ultimately "unworthy" student falls on them, not on the child who had the nerve to grow up and fail their lofty expectations. If the Greybeards never considered the possibility that the child they chose might turn out to be a man of action and not the passive, meditative navel-gazer they were hoping for, then that's their failing, not Ulfric's.

You have played the game, right? Did you start counting bodies, or is your dovahkiin one of those pacifists? In which case how do you justify depriving people of free will by means of your skeevy Illusion magic?

He doesn't ever deny it. You can talk to him about that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqAvpZTEeLo the conversation if you missed it.

The Greybeards don't own the thu'um. It was a gift of Kyne to humanity and even at the top of the 7000 steps the plaque just warns only to use the Voice in need. Well opinions are going to vary as to what "need" means, aren't they? Skyrim is under existential threat from the Thalmor and the empire not only not doing anything to stop them, they are helping them.

*shrug* It's of no real importance to me. I don't do the Stormcloak side period (well, I don't do the Imperial side either, nor do I do the MQ....) Why you would care if someone did find a 'cloak torturer though escapes me. Unless you've lily-whited the 'cloaks in your own mind, therefore if someone DID find a 'cloak torturer it would upset your applecart....

Regardless, this game can be all things to all people. And there is just no reason at all to try to convince everyone else that YOUR way is the only right way.

I don't own an apple cart. I would just want to know if there were a Stormcloak torturer in the game that I did not know about. What is wrong with that?


Whatever dude. Sounds like you take videogames too seriously. It is just a game and all this stuff we are talking about is just something some guys (and gals) that work for a company in Maryland dreamt up between coffee breaks. Relax.

"dudette" please and thank you. And I've been playing computer games since 1985. I'm not the one doing anything but making light of the stuff the rest of you are agonizing over so not sure where you get the idea it's real serious for me, or that I need to relax. I don't have to worry about relaxing, I'm retired. I can play CRPGs and WoW all day if I like, and that's REALLY relaxing (as long as I'm not trying to heal or tank in WoW.... those are the OPPOSITE of relaxing for me....)

Okay, dudette, sorry. I got you beat by just a couple years, since my first open world fantasy videogame where you had to kill dragons was Adventure on the Atari 2600 circa 1979. You came out of nowhere on this thread and accused me of trying to convince everyone else that my way was the only way. Everybody on this forum argues some position or another, so your post seemed like a bit of a personal attack to me so my response was just sayin to relax and have fun here.

Man, that world was huge. That's funny to hear it referred to as open world, but I guess it kinda' was because nothing was quest-locked. You found the secret room, right?

I figured since she started a new 'paragraph' that that was just a general comment to all of us.

Eh, no.... I'd already posted in this thread a ways back somewhere.... I tend to read threads like this when they hit the top again, but lots of times don't reply again. Just depends. And that really wasn't pointed at you more than at anyone else who gets all wound up over "either/or" faction in this game. I've played both to the point of the Whiterun trashing, and that's when I decided that I've got enough war IRL, I don't need it in a game like this one.... I played the MQ through to the end once, and that was sufficient. I played the TG through the main part of the quest (didn't go into "restoring" it.... don't care for the TG in this game, and don't care if they live in shabbiness in the sewers forever now) once, won't do it again.

That's the really GREAT thing about TES games though, there's always plenty to do even if you don't do the dev's ideas of "fun quests". I must be on my 30th toon by now, and it's still fun to run around and exterminate bandits, explore (I still haven't seen the entire map I think), and mess around with mods and such. Especially now that modders are providing quest mods and player houses.

I got my first PC in 1984.... never had anything like it before that. And my first game was Stonegate (b&w monitor....), followed shortly by upgrading to a hard drive, windows 3.0 (*wince* buggier than ANY anthill, and no handy anteater either!), and a color monitor - so I could play the SSI gold box games in my old tabletop AD&D world, the Forgotten Realms....

Of course! And if what I read on wikipedia is correct, that was the worlds very first Easter Egg. Of course, that was before the days where you could Google stuff, so I was a might puzzled when I first found the hidden room in castle black (the one you had to use the bridge to get to) and even more puzzled when I pulled out the mysterious dot and it took a while to find the other room with Warren Robinette's name. I played that game for hours and hours and discovered all the glitches, like taking a bat ride across the realm inside a dragon's tummy. My favorite was using the magnet to pull the bridge along with you so you could just move through walls at will. Those were the says.

Well, in that case, it is a fair comment. I just did not know why you were picking on me, since I am not the only one arguing a position here. But if it is meant to apply to everyone arguing one side or another, then I actually agree with the comment.


Yep. I have one character who has got the jagged crown, but none of the others have started the civil war yet and none has made it very far into the main quest line. Mostly I just run around and explore.

That was my fault for not "end-quoting" your statement before I added that. Sorry!

Yeah, that had to be the first Easter Egg - never even thought about that - especially since it was like the 7th video game ever.

I don't recall how I found out about that dot. I do remember circling the 'room' that held the dot and I think I even got into it, but didn't 'bump' into the wall to get it until I was told or read about it later. I used to taunt the dragons from the edges and then run into the room. So many exploits - love that game.

No worries! We are all good.

Discussing. It's discussing, not agonizing.

You don't like the quest line and don't consider it important to the game, and you're free to express that POV. That's all anyone else is doing, too- expressing their own POV about the story and the issues it brings up.

Exactly! And I will add before this thread hits the post limit that I find this questline to be really intriguing because you can choose sides (and even betray your chosen side) which is something you don't get with many other questlines. Any they certainly did a good job of making the choice between sides about as morally ambiguous as possible.

After all this time (since 11/11/11... however much time that is), it's agonizing. It's no longer really discussion; it's those of you who have entrenched themselves in each side agonizing over not getting the entirety of the player base on "your" side.

If it wasn't that, you (and those on the "other" side) wouldn't keep posting.

Now, I'm perfectly happy for you (and those on the "other" side) to have your own ideas about how to play the game, how to "normalize" things that maybe don't fit your preconceived ideas of the "way things ARE" - but the fact that y'all on BOTH sides keep extending minor threads with minor questions about specific situations from the original posters' views, making them - AGAIN - into a warzone of your personal views on who is right or not between the two factions....

Well, it beggars description.

Personally, I think y'all are wasting a huge amount of rhetoric on something that's completely useless. You personally prefer the 'cloaks. Others (whose names at this point escape me.... due most likely to age, memory, and wine) prefer the Imperials. And for some completely unfathomable reason, you (and others) think it's your personal god-driven imperative to CHANGE THE MINDS of those who for whatever reason like the Imperials.

It's a game, Celan. Not only that, it's a sandbox game - nothing I do in my game will impinge on you in your game. Give it a rest. PLEASE give it a rest. And yes, I'm going to do that myself, because I'm all too frequently finding that hysterical laughter is ALL you and the others are invoking in me.

I think the root of this problem is that the some of the people who have been here discussing Stormcloaks v Empire since 11/12/11 get a little more impatient and curt each time newer people come here and post questions about "Which Side Should I Join?" or "Which Side is Better?" or "Which Side Has the Best Torture Methods?". It's the main reason I avoid the SC v E threads for the most part and if I do comment on them I type my standard 2-3 sentences of my views on the matter and then either lurk or avoid the thread thereafter.

How can you call Torygg a bad King? You never seen him rule. Today politics rule our lives, and those of us in the U.S. often call out our president bad. And oddly enough when we look back they were good.

For the Thu'um, have you seen Ulfric's? Its a Fus-Ro-Dah. Not the week Fus or Fus-Ro, it's the throw you across the room Fus-Ro-Dah. Ulfric had no reason to use it, he is an experienced war veteran and Torygg was raised like a noble, not a Nord.

Ulfric calls himself the a "son of Skyrim" when all he is, is just a bully. He lusts for the throne and will sacrifice a whole province for it.

You can say all you want that he is your new "Messiah" and whatnot. Don't matter, Choices in the end to the next game most add up. So Ulfric will never get the throne, he will die before he gets it.

Last thing is killing Tullius, if Tullius lives and goes back to Imperial City and says he lost. A new type of detachment will be sent, and even more troops and another respected General. So Ulfric thought that if you kill a man with his honor is better than leaving him to shame for the rest of his life. And also the send more troop anyway.

And what are you doing but trying to get the rest of us to agree with your POV? Stop with the patronizing nonsense. Believe me, it's just a game to me too and also to everyone here, I'm sure. We don't need a nanny.

*laughing* Oh, I have little interest in "nannying" anyone, thanks very much. And I'm certainly not interested in subverting every post by someone who's wavering over an approach to the game, unlike you.

My pov is simply that this game can be all things to all people. I don't have any agenda at all, other than telling people that NO CHOICE IS THE ONLY RIGHT ONE.

Unlike you.

If you don't like what I post, I recommend you use the ignore function.

Works both ways.

*ahem*
If you would all be so kind as to get back on topic, I would like to discuss whether the Empire intervening in Skyrim's rite of succession was justified considering the circumstances, or if the Stormcloaks are right in accusing the Empire of corrupting Nord politics and infringing on their traditions.

I believe ulfric thinks that the empire has corrupted the ruling class in skyrim and he and his people are furious about the thalmor sotuation and the empire not doing anything about it. I believe the whole high king situation was that either he was dissatisfied that the new high king was gonna let things keep playing out and or using the thuum in the duel was a statement to the country and world that nords of old are back and pissed. He coulda easiely won the duel with the king, but using the thuum in what people from skyrim and cryodill will talk aboit will give more umph to the situation and make more of a statement than just going and killing him.
If he just won the duel quickly and the normal way, the world and the empire woulda just saw someone veying for the throne. But using the thuum which nords havent been seen using in years brings back all those storys of terrifying nords shoiting down walls and whatnot and dismisses the homogenized nord and replaces it with the fearsome and unigue nord.