Ulfric kills Torygg = good
Imperials wanna behead PC = bad

So... Ulfric's action are justified because what? He wanted to prove something? That's why Torygg had to die?

Torygg could surrender? Ahahahahaha! Good one! But when Tullius wants to surreder it's called a cowardice!


Please...

Are you referring to the time spent after the Markarth Incident? If so, where does the "15 years" come from? Because I've wondered how long his sentence was, but I haven't seen any in-game references. I confess I keep saving all the books I find "to read later" but somehow later never comes, lol. So I'm curious as to the source of the information.

Yes. And he wanted to provoke a confrontation with the empire. Torygg is not some innocent bystander- he's a king, holding the power of life and death of many people in his hands.

The PC is just a schmuck at the wrong place and wrong time. Since the ambush was near Darkwater Crossing and Ralof thinks you were crossing the border, the PC is probably not even near where the Stormcloaks were taken. They're just rounding people up and beheading all of them, including a horse thief who would normally just be given a bounty.


I don't think it's stated anywhere, I'm just deducing. The Markarth Incident was 2 years after the Great War, about 25 years prior to game time. Since it's said that his imprisonment was what made Ulfric finally rebel, and we know the rebellion has only been going on a couple years, it's a reasonable inference.

He's a young king. Rulers who come to the throne early tend to emulate the reign of their parents, at least in the early years. (See: many examples in RL history. Nicholas II of Russia is a prime example, albeit one who failed to move past that "I'll rule just like my father did" phase.) This is a weakness, yes, but some rulers do grow out of it as they gain more experience on the throne.

Torygg didn't hold the crown that long. We don't know what he would have done as the years went by and he got more experience. Hypotheticals strike again.

They had waited 30 years for the empire to start fighting the Thalmor. Ulfric spent a portion of that time in prison. How long is he supposed to wait for Torygg to grow a spine?

Ulfric didn't just kill him- he gave Torygg an opportunity to publicly support independence at the moot, and when that produced nothing he let Torygg decide whether to submit his leadership to the moot or face a duel. Granted, Ulfric knew he wouldn't decline, and knew that he would lose. It was a checkmate. So, feel sorry for Torygg if you want, but the buck still stopped with him. Or it should have, if he was a proper king.

The Imperials didn't walk up to the PC and challenge him to a contest of prowess in which removal of one's head would be the price of failure. Nor did the PC have the power or opportunity to decline the Imperials' offer to perform the beheading in the event that the PC preferred to lose his honor rather than his noggin.

It's not quite the same situation, is what I'm sayin'.

Funny.

I can imagine how it would work in real life. Let's think about it. People should grab their guns an knives and start killing politicians.

What?! They're thieves and liars, they should die no?

Great logic. Murder justified.


About the Empire. I can't even count it anymore, how many people already stated that there is an ingame dialog between the PC and Tullius about the Empire preparing for war.

Oh but wait. War is something trivial that can be waged no matter how many people might die. Who cares about women and children! Let's forget about the proper preparations and just declare a war to the 2nd if not THE biggest power in Tamriel.

Because Skyrim is a modern democracy. That's your logic?

And about Tullius' words, I'm aware that he says that. I hope it's true. In the meantime, they are bowing to the Thalmor's every whim and preferring to bleed their own citizens than fight the real enemy. And it doesn't really matter, since the Stormcloaks no longer want to fight under the empire's rule regardless.

Damn, I really keep hoping that I'll find something definitive. I had my hopes up when I got the option to ask him how he became Jarl of Windhelm, but unsurprisingly it's not stated outright there either. He does say that when he returned and was put on the throne vacated by his deceased father, the people were angry and clamoring for justice, or something to that effect. Which does make it sound like the independence movement or at least the first plans for it might have been a response to the mood there at the time - whenever "that time" was - and not something that got rolling many years later. If so that would definitely indicate that he didn't just get a slap on the wrist with regard to sentencing.

I also wonder where he and the other "offenders" in Markarth did their time. The most obvious answer seems to be Cidhna Mine, but since that's always talked about as a place full of Forsworn it's hard to believe that they also threw Ulfric and other members of his Nord militia in there. If so it must have been ... interesting, to say the least. Eh, maybe it was some Imperial-run facility.

The Empire in Skyrim are also NORDS who don't support Ulfric.

I'm a Christian but I don't run around and speak out loud about my beliefs. People in Skyrim were peacfully worshipping Talos until Ulfric made his move. Because of HIS actions the Thalmor were allowed to enter Skyrim.

What he did weakened both Skyrim and the Empire. Where two fight, the third one wins ( aka Dominion ).

The WGC made persecution of Talos worship possible, not Ulfric.

You don't see the bigger picture and I won't bother to explain it for the God know which time.

But if you did, would agents of a foreign government be allowed to arrest you, take you away never to be seen again, and do whatever they wish to you as punishment for that offense? Has your government signed an agreement with that foreign government giving them the right to do just that? Unless the answer is "yes" then you can't compare your situation with Talos worship in Skyrim.

It's not about whether you, personally, choose to keep your beliefs private or acknowledge them publicly. It's about whether or not you have the right to make that choice in the first place without the threat of persecution for choosing one way or the other.

Fine. Belive what You want. If you can't get it then by all means, stay in your belief that everything in the world can be desribed as good and evil, black and white.

Exactly. Torygg has done nothing to stop the Thalmor from entering his country and slaughtering his people.The difference between Torygg and Ulfric is that Ulfric is a war veteran. He knows exactly what is going on in skyrim while the inexperienced Torygg probably has no idea what is going on therefour lacks of leadership. He had no business being High King of Skyrim. It was nothing more than the empire way of continuing to control Skyrim by putting a High king that supports the empire. Witnesses of citizens from his very own city heard him praising the empire at an obsessive rate and started doubting his leadership.

That appears to be your angle. I won't speak for anyone else, but it's not mine. I don't support the Stormcloaks (generally- I have one Stormcloak character, one imperial and two neutral, but obviously at heart I'm a 'cloak) because I think the empire is evil. The Thalmor, maybe, though they have their own twisted zealot logic. I simply think the empire is failing its citizens badly and that Skyrim has to get out before they're sold out further, like Hammerfell was.

Direct quote needed on this, please. I've talked to most of the people in Solitude and I can't recall one of them saying this directly.


Talos worship was banned as part of the White-Gold Concordat, and it was banned throughout the Empire--everyone (more or less) was free to worship Talos until that came down. It had nothing to do with Ulfric or Torygg.

As for the Thalmor's presence in Skyrim...not sure if there's any cited source for when or why they arrived. My guess would be that Thalmor "embassies" started popping up after the Concordat was signed which, again, would have had nothing to do with Ulfric. They've been meddling with the Empire long before the war started in Skyrim.


This at least we can agree on. It's the reason why my character's stayed neutral and will probably stick with forcing a truce via "Season Unending." (Otherwise I'd be leaning a bit Stormcloak-ish. My next character will probably side with them.)

One woman criticized Torygg's tendency to make speeches. Clearly Torygg was an abomination against all mankind!

Torygg wasn't willing to sacrifice the resources being part of the Empire brought to Skyrim: Trade, food, etc. Things that the common people need. There's more to being a ruler than crushing someone's skull in combat. You have to look at the larger picture. How to provide for your citizens.

True, the White-Gold Concordant outlawed Talos worship, but Ulfric and the Markarth Incident gave the Thalmor the excuse they needed to march into Skyrim.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a time frame for when Torygg was crowned High King and how old he was? The game makes it sound like he was just a boy, and much younger than Ulfric. He'd have to have been crowned after Ulfric was released from jail and becoming Jarl of Windhelm if Ulfric was at the Moot.

I think he means Sayma, the redguard at Bits and Pieces. I'm going from memory but she says something like "Just between you and me, he wasn't even a very good king. All he did was give long speeches about the glories of the empire."

BTW no wonder so many people think Elisif is the one who says the bit about Torygg respecting Ulfric... that's what the wiki says. *facepalm*

Galmar speaks the truth. The day that the empire signed the agreement with the Thalmor was the day that the empire died. High King Torygg should've made the first move to declare Skyrims independence.. I'm certain had he done this he would've gotten the help from Ulfric and his rebel stormcloak army to rid of the Thalmor and the empire clutches.


Including the quote below


Yes Sayma is who I am speaking about. I am certain that many others would agree but too afraid to go open about it because it would be socially unacceptable to talk down to the High King, especially after his death.

Thank you.


I'd be less certain about that. You're putting words into NPCs' mouths at this point. That's speculation, not evidence.

Yes, please. Vote from the rooftops.

Call me an anarchist but if the USA Government (The empire) signed an agreement (White Gold Concordat) with the Arabs (Thalmor) indicating that they will ban the free worship of Jesus Christ and Christianity (Talos) your damn right theirs going to be a lot of Ulfric stormcloaks building up armies to fight and to restore the government by replacing the weak with the strong. The government should fear the people, not the people fearing for their government.

Yes after the battle for Windhelm theirs a dialog from General Tullius indicating that they're preparing for war against the elven supremacy Thalmor.. My question is why didn't Tullius make a temporary truce against Ulfric since both of them have hatred for the thalmor? Wouldn't it make more sense to double up your man by temporary joining force your enemy for a while?

In that respects the thalmor is sitting back laughing at both parties.

When did Thalmors go from Nazis to Arabs? What's next? Soviet Union?

Let me rephrase what I wrote, since it may appear to many that I am targeting Arabs.. which isn't my intentions. I meant to say Islamic militants. If you stop and think about it Thalmors are no different then the Nazis (who wants to kill all none elves) and the Islamic supremacy (targeting those who worship Talos).