I never said a "no" button is too much to ask.

I'm saying, is it -really- that serious the fact that a quest is still put into your quest log, even though you never have to do it? You literally never have to do any quest that you don't want to. You can completely ignore any and every quest in your quest log. People making such a huge deal over "clutter" comes off as nothing more than spoiled whining in my book.

I'm not saying it can't be improved. I'm saying, it's really not that big of a deal.

As far as scripted events go - that only makes the game more realistic. You do know that things happen outside of your control, correct? It makes it more realistic that, even if you decline a quest, the events of that world still happen.

Many would.

I'm happy for Bethesda, because I think generally they are a good studio, and deserve success. In addition, the elder scrolls is one of my favorite video games series, and I'm all for more people finding out about it.

I'm also continually discouraged because with that greater popularity, Bethesda gets the message that what they've been doing to the series (simplifying, streamlining, dumbing down, whatever you want to call it) is %100 the right way to go for popularity and income. While games should certainly evolve, and I think the initial success of Morrowind on Xbox demonstrates that a game DOES NOT in fact have to be simple to be successful on consoles/ successful in huge markets. I also feel that Bethesda is starting to realize this, as Skyrim is still two steps forward and one step backward from Oblivion.

And thank you for that valuable input. The only
Thing you will accomplish here is getting the topic locked by reaching 200 posts, ie loose

Its really an awesome game. When the CK gets released and the modders can start transforming it back into an RPG, it will be even better.

Its given me the most gameplay of any game released within the last few years and I am not done yet. I wish the CK would have been out much sooner though. I am dying to try playing an actual magic user, once an actual magic system is introduced into the game.

According to Wikipedia's definition of a role playing video game, which includes "major similarities with pen-and-paper games [including] developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replay_value and immersion," Skyrim is lacking in some of those elements when compared to previous iterations of the franchise and older video game RPGs.

Ah, but by what means do we make the studio aware of our worries? By labelling a large share of the buyers of the game as dumb/idiots or presenting constructive critique as you just did?

Oblivion? Morrowind?
Please!

inafter butthurts complaining about how unfinished the game is.

What of those is Skyrim lacking?

-Developed story-telling and narrative elements?
Check. Has a main quest of becoming the Dragonborn and defeating Alduin. Has parallel and at times intersecting sub plots of the Skyrim Civil War, and various different guild story arcs. Plenty of mini-stories in side quests.

-Player character development?
Check. You develop your skills as you use them, and further specialize via perks.

-Complexity?
Check. Improving skills is no longer just a basic 1-100, but now you actually make choice in specializations within your skills. The world is incredibly detailed and brought to life.

-Replayability?
Check. I've made various different characters, and even when recreating the same character, with the same skills, and morals, I had a completely different experience within the first 10 hours as I did the first time I made the character.

-Immersion?
Check. A very lifelike world, alive, and rich with detail.

So how exactly does Skyrim fail by that definition?

ignore them, i like you

BECUASE IT ISNT A DICE-ROLL GAME WITH A INVTOERY THAT USES A BOX SYSTEM!!!!

Dunno where you got that from. Never said people who like game X have no rights to enjoy Game Y. But why would a company creating an RPG(which comes in a long line of great RPGs) cater to folks who don't want their RPG to offer difficult choices or folks who want to just get to playing immediately?

Money. And why would you be upset at folks who have a long history with this series getting upset when they see it slipping away from the RPG they know and love?


Also, was oblivion and or morrowind not fun? You imply that wanting the game closer to that somehow makes it less fun.

Well, first I didn't label such buyers as necessarily dumb. It's the same market that played Morrowind on Xbox and loved it. It's just that Bethesda/ Other publishers THINK they're dumb, because that sells. But I'd wager a smarter game would sell just as well, now that they've established their brand.

And to answer your question, I don't really know. It's difficult. Post all we want on the forums, it's probably not going to get heard, although some of the loudest/most repeatedly complaints do get addressed. The problem is of course that you do have a minority who actually ARE dumb/impatient, and they are just as loud. Complaining about a LACK of hand holding, or complaining about too much complexity, etc. You have to be heard over those people as well.

Maybe the reviews are good for a reason? Every professional journalist out there can't understand what RPG means but you can?

You're confusing lacking with missing entirely. I say some of the above qualities are lacking when compared with previous elder scrolls titles and other older RPGs. Not that they are missing from the game entirely.

They deserve it.

I played TES from day one.
People will always love the game they played first (let's say daggerfall). Some insist on comparing the later game with their first. The problem is that it's all an illusion. You are trying to compare an EXPERIANCE you had (in this case) 16 years ago. The problem with this is that we were 16 years younger, the technology were 16 years newer, perhaps this was your first encounter with a rpg (which is often completely magical). Basically you at being nostalgic.
This is how it's always been, things were always better "back then". How do we vent our frustration? By reducing those who settle for the new stuff to dumb mindless morons who won't see the truth. Sadly this is only nostalgia.

What difficult choices did Morrowind have?

Skyrim has more quest choices than Morrowind.

Yea dismiss all the arguments and facts and say it's a thing called nostalgia. Convenient.
Besides nostalgia does not apply when you compare cold hard facts/specific characteristics of the game or when you replay it now and enjoy it more than Skyrim.

And I say they are improved upon previous Elder Scrolls titles.

It's subjective.

Like the Skyrim haters just dismiss those who like it as "dumbed down"? Convenient.

I have offered "facts" of my own to explain why I feel it offers more than the past.

The problem is that it's subjective. It's a matter of if you prefer the newer methods or not. It has nothing to do with "dumb" or "simple", or even "nostalgia"

You are actually kind of proving my point.
It's subjective. There are no facts, just opinions. Opinions differ and this is where Beth succeeded, catering to a wide customerbase.

We disagree, we have different opinions. Does that give anyone of us the right to call the other one "dumb" (as in dumbed down)? No.

Some of it, like narrative, story, replayability, and immersion are, certainly.

Character development and complexity are objectively simplified in comparison.

Some Examples: less skills, no attributes, far less dialogue choices and less dialogue overall. Far fewer quests, far fewer guilds, less weapons types, less of a variety of weapons within each type, less armor types, less armor slots, less inventory slots, less spell effects, fewer spells, fewer books, less hand placed items, etc.

This is off the top of my head. People have compiled full lists of this stuff.

Huh? The "Skyrim haters" as you call them, address to the company or the game in the first place not the rest of the fans who like it. It is silly to suggest that the "haters" dismiss those who like it.

Opinions are subjective. Facts are not subjective. For example a fact is Skyrim changed, skills are less, features were cut etc etc. Now if it's you opinion that all these don't matter then good for you.

When people say it has been dumped down, they do not dismiss other people (and i don't know how you got that incoherent thing in your mind) nor do they dismiss the game itself. They express their subjective opinion, so what's your problem?