Really? Rpg in books? Surely you must be joking.
/sarcasm off

So
Awesome you already know of their existence and complete lack of the things I said were not needed for an RPG, so why exactly did you feel it was necessary to argue against me saying they are not needed when you already knew they were not needed?

Actions speak louder then words. Fact is Skyrim is the single best selling Bethesda game bar none. Read the Bethblog...as they seem to imply they plan on supporting the game short as well as long term. I hope this means new content and additions. Will Beth simply sit on the $$$$ and lay back or ...

As of today, it’s been three weeks since we released Skyrim worldwide. We’re simply blown away by the response, from new and old fans, and amazed by the sheer number of people playing the game.
We want to thank everyone reading this for playing our game and supporting all it tries to do. We wouldn’t have this success without you, and we want you to know we’re committed to making your Skyrim experience even better. And not just in the short term, but over the life of the game.

After the holidays, we’ll continue to release regular updates for the game — through full title updates, as well as incremental “gameplay updates” to fix whatever issues come up along with rebalancing portions of the game for difficulty or exploits. We plan on having a lot of these, not just a few. Overall, you should expect updates to be hitting the PC and Steam earlier and more often, as that’s a process we control. Console updates will follow, as they must be certified and processed by those manufacturers.
We all know this is a huge game, and everyone has a different experience. We’ll continue to do everything we can to make the game better and better for as many people as possible every day. We’ve also realized that with the millions upon millions of people playing Skyrim, we need to treat our updates with greater care. If we get too aggressive trying to fix a minor issue, we run a risk of breaking something larger in a game like this. To be safe, we are prioritizing code side fixes right now over data fixes. Quest and balance issues are usually data, and those will start rolling in a large way with the January updates.

I was not arguing the need for anything I was arguing your right to call anyone who is actually enjoying the game a dumbed down causal player, or in your words just casual.
Anyone who bought the game has the right to enjoy it without people putting labels on them and basically blaming them for "killing the TES-series".
I mean come on, are you people that ignorant? (not talking about anyone specific but the community as a whole)

There are different types of gamers. I'm sorry if for some reason that bothers you, but it's true. It's why there are so many different types of games out there. I did not say everyone who is enjoying the game is a casual. I enjoy Skryim very much; I just would've enjoyed it even more if they weren't turning TES into an action/adventure game. When you take an established series and start to shift it's genre it will piss off the original fans.


I'm sorry but it's true. Not killing the TES-series, but killing it as an RPG series yes. The complete non-sequitor that started this off is a nice example. When roosterdad was talking about the dumbing down of an RPG game, he gets countered by examples of the very stuff that is central to the casual's gaming experience but completely peripheral to an RPG game.

Bethesda has finally done what other rpg-developers have failed before. They finally made a rpg that has gone mainstream.

Now I dont mind this, but if they dumb it down one more time, it will svck.

Look what happened to Dragon Age 2.

I think its success is well deserved but I hope they get the patch and the editor out soon because they can now afford to work on those things.

Great game!

Skyrim will still be the exact same game whether people buy it or not.

Now this is what I'm talking about. "dumbing down", ie "everyone who does not enjoy the game as I do is dumb".
Can I call everyone who is not a dumbed down casual gamer an elitist rpg-a hole?

Loads an LOADS of people are enjoying the game. This is great news for everyone since Beth is getting a lot of money. This money could actually be used to make another TES-game. The followers of skyrim will probably buy that game as well." even if they make it for the more "not so dumb hardcoe 1337-rpg fans".
This will result in a lot of money....etc etc

Now explain to me how this is a bad thing. And don't tell me oblivion and morriwind catered to the elitist rpg-a hole because that is just bulldroppings

That's funny, I find Skyrim to be the most RPG yet, with more character development choice than ever before.

-I am a fan since Morrowind
-I am not what many call "casual"

- You defend Skyrim to the point of absurdity

The only thing more "hardcoe" about Morrowind is the fact that Elder Scrolls wasn't "mainstream" yet, as Morrowind was really Bethesda's first commercial success.

So basically what I'm saying is - I agree with you.

Morrowind and Skyrim are my 2 favorite games of all time, and for the same exact reason. I have spent countless hours in both games, and I just don't see how everyone goes on and on about how much more "RPG" Morrowind is than Skyrim. They are the same damn thing. They may have a slightly different approach to how they reach their objective, but in the end, they accomplish the same thing.

I defend it because it deserves it.

I defend it because people like you make inaccurate claims about it, such as saying it is no longer an "RPG", and is "dumbed down" for "casuals".

You defend broken mechanics like accepting a quest when you actually selected the option to decline it, because Skyrim deserves it?

Like i said. You defend this game to the point of absurdity.

No, I argue against the mentality that somehow that is some affront to the gods. People act like Todd Howard [censored] their mother by putting in a quest log that they don't prefer.

I have never claimed that improvements can't be made to the game. I can list quite a few things that I would have liked to see implemented in the game to make it better. I do, however, have a problem with the attitude that runs rampant on these forums, that any minor aspect of the game that someone doesn't want is somehow some atrocious, heinous error by Bethesda that must be corrected now because it is an injustice to the world that it even exists.

Case in point - why is it such a problem that a quest shows up in your quest log? You are not forced to do the quest, you can completely ignore it.

It is also no different than Morrowind or Oblivion when quests that I had no intention of doing were written in my journal - in the voice of my character, making a statement that he should "check it out", even though my character would have no intention of "checking it out". These complaints weren't made then. But now, in an attempt to find something to complain about, these petty issues are amplified to be some kind of major issue.

Whats to defend? Skyrims success is not a matter of opinion, link me to ONE bad review

imo, to look at the different aspects of skyrim and compare it to a classical character driven rpg, then, "dumbed down" has to be used. the complexity and depth just isn't there. the player-based action game part of skyrim is pervasive. less options. useless skills. simplistic game mechanics. too much accessibility.

the topic really is about classic rpg/character driven vs. action/player skill.

Please explain to me how the complexity and depth isn't there. Please explain to me how there are less options.

Because I 100% disagree with you. I believe there is more depth and complexity, and more choice. So please, explain it to me.

I would argue, if it's all about "character driven" (I.E. player skill has no impact), why even play the game? You're not looking to play the game, you're looking for the game to dictate an outcome to you. Might as well just read a book or watch a movie.

Is it because there aren't Attributes? I would argue that numbers don't determine an RPG, but rather, the ability to make choices for your character. I would also argue that everything Attributes did are possible with Perks. Except Speed, that has been removed.

Is it the number of skills? Because I would argue that with a lower number of skills, Skyrim allows for more customization and choice by allowing multiple specializations within each and every skill.

Is it because there are no "classes"? Well, I would argue that "classes" barely had any relevance in past games, because there was nothing keeping you within your selected skills. You were still able to use any and every skill outside of your chosen "Majors", and become a master of each and every skill regardless of your "class". I would argue that Skyrim has a stronger "class" system by imposing limited perk specialization, which allows you to become skilled in each and every skill (can still level anything to 100) but you can only truly specialize in a handful of skills with perks.

Dialogue was no more complex in Morrowind's text based dialogue than Skyrim's spoken dialogue. Quests in the past offered no choice, whereas Skyrim may not have many choices, but at least it does have some. Morrowind and Oblivion never really had puzzles in their quests and dungeons. Skyrim may not have very complicated puzzles, but at least it has something. The world is far more detailed, with both scripted and random events to bring the world to life, as well as living cities and towns, including musicians in taverns that add to the world's ambiance.

So I would genuinely like to know, what is it about Skyrim that is so lacking compared to previous Elder Scrolls games?

You once again act as if a functioning "no" button is too much to ask. Not too mention the possible scripted events that will occur as a result of you "accepting" said quest, when you did not.

Are you seriously using past games defects to glorify their presence in current games?

That's the problem, too many butt kissing publications handing out good reviews without actually understanding what RPG really means.

No, hes using past games defects and the lack of people ocmplaining about them in past games as a means to show complaining about them in THIS game is stupid and hypocritical.


RPG is a word, and like all words it is dfined by man, and like all things defined by man it changes constantly.

Skyrim is no more or less a ture RPG then Mass Effect 2 is to Icewind Dale is.

I do complain about past games features, though.

And you bash it to the point of boredom. FFS, your signature and your whole forum history is as biased as biased can be. What really shocks me, though, is the fact that you've spent so many hours explaining to everyone why the game is [censored] that there's no point in doing so anyway. You don't even discuss It, so to speak.

Many dont

RPG, role playing game: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

How does this game deviate from that definition?

It's YOUR definition of rpg that this game deviates from.