I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but a book you find in the Thalmor Embassy states that

Ulfric's war is exactly what the Thalmor want.

So in that case, I chose the Imperials. End the rebellion, reunify the Empire, and put a clog in the Thalmor's plans.

"Skyrim for the Nords" doesn't just mean for Nords? You stormcloak apologists sure are something.

He asked you for proof. Please do provide. I mean we have the jarl himself saying he was the one that promised Ulfric. The bear of markarth even admits the empire agreed to it. That is a sanction.

Also I'd like a source on the legitimization of Madanach's kingdom. I remember hearing something about that too and I can't quite remember where.



Means ruled by the nords. It's rather reasonable.

Problem is, what is left of the Thalmor army is located out of reach and can do border harassment as they damn well please. And there's nothing much the Legion can do to prevent it. The Thalmor are crap in open combat but what are the odds they'll allow themselves to be engaged in open combat? Unless your answer is "slim to none", you're being naive.
But you're right about Skyrim. They currently couldn't touch it if they wanted to. They can send hit squads but that's about it.

This is purely speculation based on the idea that they'd have nothing in reserve and sent everything with their invasion force. I'd like to know what would support such an assertion, however. Military strategy? Logic? Any lore whatsoever?

Shock and awe allowed them to take the Imperial City. It just wasn't enough to break the Empire and so that invasion army got destroyed. Even so, if you look at a map instead of naively assuming that the enemy is weak, you'll notice that there's hardly anything the Empire could do at that particular time to prevent guerilla raids across the border combined with intensive naval warfare. You'll also notice that the Empire wouldn't stand a chance to actually strike back at the Thalmor where it hurts.

I think you're for some reason assuming that the Thalmor are operating entirely without reserves. That they've emptied out Summerset Isle and thrown everything they had at first Cyrodiil and then Hammerfell. Such moves would have been huge gambles and tremendously stupid, and therefore hardly what you'd expect from the Thalmor. But keep dreaming that they're all just idiots and that you're the only remotely smart person in the universe.

Me: "Nords arent the only ones living in Skyrim"
Galmar: "Fair enough".

Okay, upon closer inspection of dialogue and in-game lore, it does appear the Empire agreed to allow Talos worship. I admit was wrong about that assumption. But Ulfric was not drawn in by the Empire promising free Talos worship if he freed Markarth (rather it was him wanting to follow in Talos' footsteps, although the Thalmor also had a hand in it), his militia went into Markarth before any such thing was offered and when the Legion returned to Markarth to restore order, Ulfric wouldn't let them in until they promised him freedom to worship Talos. He was the one who mandated such terms, and only after he took the city and was in the process of butchering anyone associated with the Forsworn. Which was all part of the Thalmor's plans.

The Empire had nothing to do with the slaughter that Ulfric brought down on the city except taking advantage of it after it had been done, which as the Thalmor planned from the start, backfired.

Bear of Markarth, there was mention that the Empire planned on working out a peace treaty with the Forsworn kingdom. Heck, the Forsworn themselves were seeking peace with the Empire. They certainly isn't any evidence that the Empire planned on going to war with the Forsworn. Yes some would consider that a bad thing, but a peaceful Forsworn Kingdom would be no less horrible than Morrowind.

That's what people say when they want to say 'shut up', but don't want to start an argument.

Speaking of false nonsense, you seem to be the first person I've heard suggesting that rebuilding a war-battered land is easily done in 20 years or that nothern Hammerfell is totally intact after five years of warfare (check how well France came out of WW1 please), or that Ulfric is actually fighting for Talos worship rather than the title of High King. Would you mind providing any sources on this?

Idiot logic, eh?

The Thalmor need Talos worship to stop for what is essentially religious reasons and that effectively means they'll have to eventually take over mainland Tamriel. The biggest player in that area is the Empire. There are smaller players around but the big player is the Empire. Not Skyrim as a country, not Hammerfell, and certainly not Black Marsh (since the Argonians aren't particularly imperialistic) or Morrowind (since it got plot nuked to hell). Thus they need to get rid of the Empire to stand a chance of achieving their strategic goals. They can achieve NOTHING as long as the Empire can walk the Legion in as a backstabbing relief force if and when they feel like it.

Since the Empire is the main enemy, anything that weakens the main enemy is a positive and anything that strengthens the main enemy is a negative. It really is that simple and binary. Tulius is giving the Stormcloaks a beating, which means they're not serving their purpose of weakening the Empire. Tulius is thus effectively making the Empire stronger, arguably at the cost of an irrelevant country that won't be a main target for Thalmor for many, many years. You've said it yourself, the Thalmor can't invade Skyrim. It's literally impossible until they have Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. It goes both ways, of course. Skyrim can do even less to hurt the Thalmor than the Empire can.

If Skyrim pulls out of the Empire then that leaves the main enemy, the Empire, much weaker than before. That's good for Thalmor and you have to be a right fool to think otherwise. On the other hand, you also have to be a fool to think Tulius leaving Skyrim "weakened" means anything positive for the Thalmor, because they can't do anything to Skyrim anyway. Thus Tulius will never be an asset for the Thalmor but Ulfric definitely is. Tulius is not helping their ultimate goal of defeating the continental humans but Ulfric definitely is.

You may think their goal is hopelessly unrealistic, which is arguable but still not something that has slowed them down thus far, but you have to agree that wrecking the biggest obstacle in their way is not something that makes their plans more unrealistic than it currently is.

Please do understand what a cold war is. Because of the peace treaty, the Empire and the Thalmor are playing friends. Playing. Tulius doens't like the Thalmor but his rank forces him to act with a certain degree of political correctness until the time comes when the peace treaty can be disregarded. Meanwhile Ulfric is officially an enemy of both the Thalmor and the Empire (and he doesn't like the Thalmor at all, obviously) but his goals (which are essentially a mix between "[censored] the empire" and "I will be king!!") match the goals of the Thalmor rather well. Particularly the anti-Empire bit, of course. Consequently he's an asset, even if he isn't actually friendly towards the Thalmor.

Ulfric effectively is to the Thalmor what the mujahideen were to the US back in the day, but with the added difference that the Thalmor unlike the US wouldn't hesitate to exterminate civilians if the pawns become a problem.

Another interesting statement



Sure seems like a lot of things contradict Bear of Markarth.

Ulfric's a racist and the Empire truly doesnt care if you like Talos or not.

Lets check our facts.
1. Thalmor will attack as soon as they are ready, regardless of whether there is Talos worship. Their goal is the extinction of man. That plan is going forward whether there is Talos worship or not. There being Talos worship in Skyrim wont make them move sooner either. If they arent ready, they arent ready.
2. Disallowing Talos worship strengthens Thalmor plans because it weakens Talos.
3. Empire attacking Skyrim strengthens Thalmor plans because it squanders resources.

Conclusion: If anyone is a pawn of Thalmor it is Tullius. He did not need to attack Skyrim. There is no purpose to it since it is not what is stopping the Thalmor from attacking. Their own unreadiness is the only thing preventing them from attacking.

I assure you that wasnt the context at all. He was agreeing.

If you talk to the executioner in Solitude, he says some choice words about Jaree-Ra and that a lizard like him would not have been let in to the city under Torygg. I thought that was interesting.

Being polite to them does not extend to inviting them to meetings that they have no right to attend. That goes well beyond being polite. If the WGC gave them the right to attend the meeting then Id agree, but it doesnt. If it did she would not have left. So as it was not an invitation that was forced by treaty, it must be that he truly wanted her there.

They promised it in exchange after he had retaken it, before he would let them have it back. At his demands, before order was established. This also makes a lot more sense than "they promised it before he came in and killed the Forsworn, then imprisoned him when the Thalmor found out" for a few reasons First, Ulfric seeks to emulate Talos, thus his fighting against the Reachmen. Second, as long as The Reach was not in Imperial hands, the Concordat did not apply to it, thus for Ulfric the only options were to keep it out of the Empire's hands, or let him worship Talos as if it was still out of their hands.

As for peace offers, with the Reach once again out of their hands peace was meaningless for them. The Forsworn will accept nothing short of ruling the region, and they'll fight to the last man for it. Yet when they have it, they have no more need to fight beyond retaining their kingdom. Even Madanach says that there will be peace after the Forsworn retake The Reach.


As I recall, a swift Imperial victory is not good for the Thalmor because it seems they aren't ready, they have long-term plans for Skyrim and they need Ulfric's rebellion. If anything they've actually increased Talos worship in their plans to weaken the Empire and Skyrim.

Aren't they though? I get the feeling a lot of Stormcloak support comes from that lame Star Wars cliche of the Good Rebels against the Evil Empire. Sorry boys, it's not really that simple this time.

Ironic that the person that is claiming that the other side is oversimplifying is also claiming that a 4 word battlecry must be a distillation of the political position of an entire faction. And all in the same breath.

You're right, but the thing is is that presuming Stormcloak victory, what the Legion goes on to do (unless it involves assimilating into and/or allying itself with Skyrim) isn't really going to matter much.

This is purely speculation based on the idea that they'd have nothing in reserve and sent everything with their invasion force. I'd like to know what would support such an assertion, however. Military strategy? Logic? Any lore whatsoever?

1. The Dominion's army IS going to be primarily Altmer, because there won't be enough troops to take out of Valenwood, as half of that province doesn't actually support the Thalmor (and with the purges going on its not exactly like they're going to have slave armies either) and Elsweyr has already proven it will not do much to support the Dominion in its wars, as the only thing its done for them is house troops in waiting. If Elsweyr was actually going to send forces, then it would have done so, and we would see it mentioned.

2. This army is naturally going to be weak in numbers, particularly because of how Altmer reproduce and age. They won't be able to regenerate their losses during the Great War in 25 years in the same way that a human army could. They'll be helped by whatever Valenwood can afford to send (do note that with the impending civil war on the horizon in that particular province, it isn't likely that Valenwood would be able to spare many soldiers) but that won't bolster the army to the point that it will be able to take on the Legion as effectively, nor any other army it tries to go to war with really.

Shock and awe allowed them to take the Imperial City. It just wasn't enough to break the Empire and so that invasion army got destroyed. Even so, if you look at a map instead of naively assuming that the enemy is weak, you'll notice that there's hardly anything the Empire could do at that particular time to prevent guerilla raids across the border combined with intensive naval warfare. You'll also notice that the Empire wouldn't stand a chance to actually strike back at the Thalmor where it hurts.

Of course it did, but it also lost them the vast majority of their army when they couldn't use trickery to split their enemy 6 ways and were forced into a ground war. The Legion may have suffered heavily here too, but it still speaks volumes about the Dominions military capability. Add onto that the fact that the Dominion got fought into a standstill by Hammerfel (an unsupported province that only had a core of a fractured Legion of the Imperial Legion as its main fighting force) and was kept there for 5 years afterwords also says a lot.

And no, the Empire could have done a lot to defend itself better, but it had no chance to do so. The Dominion was essentially already across the border by the time the Emperor knew war was coming, and well before the vast majority of the Legion could have known.

I think you're for some reason assuming that the Thalmor are operating entirely without reserves

They committed all available forces to Cyrodiil. That means whatever forces they had that weren't busy in Hammerfel or weren't needed for basic defense of cities went off to all die in Cyrodiil. The Dominion might have an army still, but not one that can invade the rest of Tamriel. Cyrodiil quite possibly, but not Skyrim. Not High Rock. And certainly not a second try at Hammerfel. Argonia likely won't be invaded by anyone period until such a time when they'll be forced to concede the province.

Speaking of false nonsense, you seem to be the first person I've heard suggesting that rebuilding a war-battered land is easily done in 20 years or that nothern Hammerfell is totally intact after five years of warfare (check how well France came out of WW1 please), or that Ulfric is actually fighting for Talos worship rather than the title of High King. Would you mind providing any sources on this?

1. I never said southern Hammerfel was completely rebuilt. Only that "Much would have been rebuilt". IE, essential services such as the ports and such would have been rebuilt within 20 years. Other services perhaps not, and especially not in those places that would not have been come back too just yet. (like small villages and what not).

2. Northern Hammerfel is totally intact because the only fighting that went on there was during the Great War (IE, not the 5 years that Hammerfel spent fighting the Dominion on its own), and that was only in one city. The Dominion never made it past the desert again after that. Hence why the south was left so devastated. The south (and to a lesser extent the rest of Hammerfel) was after all the Dominion's main goal of that entire war in the first place.

Since the Empire is the main enemy, anything that weakens the main enemy is a positive and anything that strengthens the main enemy is a negative. It really is that simple and binary. Tulius is giving the Stormcloaks a beating, which means they're not serving their purpose of weakening the Empire. Tulius is thus effectively making the Empire stronger, arguably at the cost of an irrelevant country that won't be a main target for Thalmor for many, many years. You've said it yourself, the Thalmor can't invade Skyrim. It's literally impossible until they have Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. It goes both ways, of course. Skyrim can do even less to hurt the Thalmor than the Empire can.

If Skyrim pulls out of the Empire then that leaves the main enemy, the Empire, much weaker than before. That's good for Thalmor and you have to be a right fool to think otherwise. On the other hand, you also have to be a fool to think Tulius leaving Skyrim "weakened" means anything positive for the Thalmor, because they can't do anything to Skyrim anyway. Thus Tulius will never be an asset for the Thalmor but Ulfric definitely is. Tulius is not helping their ultimate goal of defeating the continental humans but Ulfric definitely is.

1. Tullius is as much a Thalmor asset as Ulfric is so long as he continues to waste Legion troops. If the Empire wishes to stay in its station, then it needs to reconcile with Skyrim, and do what it should have done 25 years ago.

2. You presume that the Empire is a no-matter-what, totally-the-white-side-of-black-and-white good thing, and this is falsely making you think you're winning the argument here. The entire point of a Stormcloak victory is to see a new Empire. One that could go on to defeat the Thalmor and restore Tamriel to most of its former glory. The Mede Empire will never be able to regain the allegiance of Hammerfel, and the continued sanction (and for that matter acceptance of) the WGC proves the ineptitude and weakness of its Emperor. The Mede Empire wasn't ever legitimate in the first place. It is a doomed Empire, and it needs to end so that a proper one can take its place.

You Empire supporters talk a lot about seeing the "big picture", but I don't think the picture you're looking at as big enough.

3. You also presume that because Ulfric and his rebellion is apparently beneficial to the Thalmor automatically makes his rebellion a bad thing. Well, that just conveniently ignores the fact that even the Thalmor do not want a Stormcloak victory. The only asset that Ulfric is to the Thalmor is the fact that hes tying up the Legion's forces. Besides that, he's a threat.

It is also very likely that Ulfric never had direct contact with the Thalmor as their dossier on him might suggest. I feel its much more likely that someone close to him is a Thalmor plant in order to keep the war going but without letting Ulfric get the upper hand against the Legion to the point of victory.

(and he doesn't like the Thalmor at all, obviously) but his goals (which are essentially a mix between "[censored] the empire" and "I will be king!!")

Again with the "Hurr Ulfric just wants personal gain h urr" shtick? Total ignorance of Nordic culture is ignorant.

i was just about to say that lol.

Please dont use smaller fonts. You're killing my eyes.

I'm trying not to actually. I'm not sure why it keeps doing that.

source: Bear of Markarth, which has flat out lied on several other occasions. No one who was actually there corroborates it. No one.

Igmund says in exchange for helping retake the hold. Not in exchange for the hold.

A lot of in-game dialogue implies that Igmund's more likely to be the bloodthirsty one. His father was murdered by them. His housecarl says she won't rest until they're all dead. Braig's daughter was executed by him. Yes Braig tells you that his daughter spoke directly to the jarl and the jarl had his men decapitate her right in front of him. Everything he says indicates he wants them dead.


Gee I wonder why all the forsworn officials were killed.

It doesn't matter, it can still been made in exchange for his help retaking the hold after he retook it. To the Nords already in the city that welcomed his intervention, there was no difference. The accounts need not be mutually exclusive.

The Forsworn won't stop fighting until either they're all dead or The Reach is their again. To the Nords, the optimal conclusion is obvious.

Something I should point out though: Igmund's father was Jarl after the Markarth Incident, he even helped arrest Ulfric. We don't know exactly when he was killed and Igmund took over. At least I think we don't.

You're using an extremely biased source as your evidence for that. Everything points against it. No one even alludes to ulfric holding the city hostage from Igmund.


Nope Igmund's father was killed during the forsworn rebellion.