for melee fights, what is missing is parry mode where you yould block/evade enemy attacks. This could be even just a hidden stat linked with weapon proficiency, so better swordsmen you are, easier it is for you to parry enemy attacks..

The diceroll IS your characters skill pitted against the enemies skill. Your enemies luck and agility in an equation with your luck/agility/weapon skill is what determines if it connects.

I think Morrowind's combat system was the way it was because Bethesda either didn't have the time or the resources to incorporate animations for every weapon available in the game and every move for that weapon (and remember how poorly done the animations were regardless). Instead, it made more sense to have a combat system that was more representative of combat rather than actual combat.

This does NOT make Morrowind's combat system better in any way. It was terrible, even by the standards of when the game was released.

Not a problem (for me), and would be my prefered method. The "number crunching" as some call it (and as some even deride it) can efficiently reflect real-world (or enough) probability if it's done well, and designed as a "weighted" system rather than absolutely random ~which I don't know of any RPG with complete random rolls.

Purely random rolls would seem to defeat the purpose, and [IMO] could only be implemented in-game by a designer that hadn't a clue about what the roll method was trying to decide and depict.
It is a situational difficulty to be overcome by the PCs growing mastery of a skill; not a lottery to see who scores a hit.

I greatly prefer morrowind's method as it would seem to better reflect the PC's personal attempt at using the weapon ~to the best of their ability.
However... It cannot be denied that the close FPP view makes this awkward due to the game not accurately depicting the results while you play. I'm used to the animated action being figurative, but it works better in a game with less visual detail* and a fixed distance from the events.

* Detail like a sword passing through the opponent when the results have determined a miss.

lol, the OP is a joke. In real life there is no such a thing like chance, its all destiny, what gods desire for our existence!

Both are awful and immersion breaking in different ways.

I use a mod that increases base block chance from 30 to 60 for Skyrim, or something like that. I plan to make it even more like Morrowind where you get base chance at 90 and it gets down to 60 according to the skill difference between parties. There is no parry so it is not complete. Hopefully, someday...

Morrowind's combat effectiveness depended on character skill. Skyrim's combat effectiveness relies on character skill. They just do it in different ways. As for the argument that later games rely on player skill, even someone like me who is a terrible twitch gamer can't miss, and the attacking through blocks isn't exactly Virtua Fighter, so it still really comes down to damage increases with weapon skill, smithing skill and weapon quality, i.e. character skill determines effectiveness to a large degree.

In light of this post i picked-up a wooden sword with my cousin seeing me picking-it-up and hit him and what do you know i didnt miss ....

In terms of close-combat, I mean how the hell can you bloody miss? block perhaps yes but miss? you must be blind in one eye to do that er wait you have to be BLIND to do that

The first time I picked up a two-handed weapon in Skyrim, I missed. The guy dodged, and you know, the awkward result of missing something, well that happened to. Maybe I just svck at this game. But at least it was not a random dice roll.

Die-rolls are for turn base or semi turn base games.

No it's not. If my enemy has more agility/luck, then they should dodge more, get critical hits on me more often or be able to block my attacks more effectively. My characters combat skills should affect how much health, stamina a magicka I have, and how much damage I deal. Not if I hit or not depending on a magic formula from the sky when I clearly just saw myself hit him. I don't care if that was a critical hit, or if I just scraqed him. I still hit him, and I should do damage.

I hear what the OP is saying but Morrowind's combat was terrible. I think what the OP was heading at was some type of a prerequiste for a weapon like One Handed being 90 before you could equip a Daedric Sword, that would be a good idea although some would call it restrictive.

I'm sorry no, Morrowind combat is not more realistic then Skyrim's, i'm sorry but this Morrowind loving has to stop.

In real life, if something is standing in front of me and I swing at it, I hit it. If I don't know what I'm doing, I might not put enough power into it or the edge of the blade might not hit right, so I don't do much damage. But I hit it.

In morrowind, when something is standing right in front of you and you swing at it and see that you hit it, or should have hit it, only the system tells you you did not. I fail to see how that is in any way realistic.

I like the concept presented in KotOR for fighting. But, like Dragon Age: Origin it's turn-based. Which I love. Morowind would have benefitted GREATLY from being turn-based. Click to attack> Attack made (Dice roll, hit or miss)> Play hit (or miss) combat animation. Granted the way Morrowind does it is how Arena and Daggerfall did it too, which is fine. I love all those games. But the mechanic has aged a little, and most people are obsessed with "immersion" (God, I hate that word) and they feel like it's unbelievable that they could miss swinging a blade at someone.

Really? No one ever misses hitting something right in front of them? Watch a boxing match, or MMA fight and see how many shots are "hits" and how many shots are misses. Generally a person is lucky to land 35-40% of their attacks (this includes blocked attacks, most of which are not actively blocked, but passively by body positioning and hand placement). There are PROFESSIONALS. Then, compound that by adding an unnatural extension to your arm that slows your motion down further, and you're probably down to 25-30% of your attacks. Directly in front of you. I don't know about you, but if someone is trying to hit me, I'm trying to not be in the way. That has a GREAT effect on the probability of a blow actually landing.

If I see the stick connect with the person in front of me, then yes, in real life, I know I hit them. In Morrowind, however, I can see the models connect. I can see the sword model strike the enemy model. Only the game tells me it didn't really happen.

You do miss in Skyrim when an enemy runs out of the way, backs up, or when you dont time a power attack right

That's why I said what I did before I posted a response to you. Having a hit and miss animation that played would have changed many people's thoughts on this greatly.

if you see it connect/hit the target and the game tells you you missed that alone should justify how broken it is, its like the game "stupidifying" you or something

If you want to compare it to MMA then remember..They are NOT using dice roll mechanics.

When a punch connects it connects... Damage done is usually depended on speed, power and where it connects.


Misses most of the time are caused by dodging, blocks or counter attacks... or just badly thrown punches/kicks.


If you are missing 50% of your punches and the othe person isn't dodging, blocking or counter attacking then someone needs glasses or a new hobbie.

Because it's not you personally swinging the weapon? (Its some Breton or Argonian that just picked up a blade for the first time the day or the week before, and they don't know what they're doing yet; might not put enough power into it, or the edge of the blade might not hit right... so they don't do much damage; or miss it entirely).

* Is this not precisely the point of any 'die & probability' combat system ~like in Morrowind (and many, many other RPGs)?
And later on when they've had some experience and past success, it becomes easier for them to strike a target and fight them confidently, and not make so many mistakes.

[This, reflected by their increased skill with the weapon and level as a PC.]

The point is that the dodging and blocking were occuring without the animations. Combat is a fluid and unpredictable thing. There may never be a game that can fully simulate combat successfully because the moves are limited but what has been pre programmed. The Dice roll mechanic simulate what is actually happening, which are changes in situation that were too minuscule and/or complex to put into motion. To say it's more realistic looking, no. It's not. But more realistic behaving? Absolutely. If I'm fighting you, I'm not standing still just swinging a weapon at you. I'm dodging, ducking, diving, dipping and dodging (intentional). It's about imagination as much as anything, something people seem to have forgotten how to use. Because what's on the screen is a representation of what's happening, not what is actually happening.

Most of you guys never played text based games, did you?

My personal view is this. Back in the early days of RPGs, %hit mechanics were vital. You often played in 3rd person, moving icons around the screen and hitting buttons labelled "attack." Nothing ever actually touched each other. So those mechanics were necesary to determine success. As you get into early 1st person RPGs, like Eye of the Beholder, Dungeon Hack and Daggerfall, those mechanics are still important. Those worlds are still basically 2D and nothing ever connects. Those games were all generally turn based, whether overtly or covertly.

When you move into games like Morrowind, though, things change. Suddenly objects exist in 3-dimensional space. Things like collisions come into play. When enemies are moving about you in 3d space and real time, player skill becomes important in ways that it never had been before. Past games required some tactical skill, but not a lot of player skill. Morrowind did, though. The player had to be able to aim and time their attacks to make sure they'd hit the enemy. This comes into direct conflict with %hit mechanics. It often hits you with a bit of a double whammy that can be very annoying. If you, as the player, are off, you miss. If you, as the player, are spot on, you still miss.

In my opinion, Bethesda made the right call in throwing out the %hit mechanics. It resolved the conflict between the two. Focusing the skill instead on the quality of the hit works much better.

I say they still are; and can only become more complex and accurate ~but I would of course still want the underlying mechanic to be dice based... Just that with advancement in technology resources, the game could afford (for instance) to take the incline of the ground, or the roughness of the debris into account ~and apply a bonus or penalty to the rolls... or even detirmine that the PC stumbles and rolls an agility check to see if they recover; (while of course applying a defensive penalty to the PC against incoming attacks while they are stumbling.

It does at that ~but for an entirely different purpose and goal; it is [IMO] totally unsuitable, (and unrealistic) as a reflection the PC's personal ability at a given skill in a given situation.

I'll put just one example: The PC automatically swings the weapon flawlessly at whatever the player has in their crosshairs... but they can ~while roaming around in dark tunnels, have a startling encounter (startling for the player). The player will click the mouse by reflex ~and the PC will [again] flawlessly swing the weapon at where ever the cross-hairs point. One may argue that the startled player may naturally have startled (imperfect) aim... but that's not my point. The PC is not startled and performs another flawless strike (at the target or nothing at all ); if it hits it hits like a pro, and with full power. Under a dice based system, the PC can have a penalty to hit that reflects being startled, and it drops their effectiveness commensurate with their fright ~(which may be of variable degree... A PC with more *stat-based* confidence/experience/ or level headedness might not be as shaken.

** I would also point to RPG classes, and having a battle hardened veteran (fighter) not be so shaken as a masterfully skilled wizard ~who might be more of an expert at craft than of self control under physical threat ).

so you think you could hit a season sword fighter?! as in skyrim where its almost impossible to miss say a bandit, whos a fighter for a living...sure thing... im sure... my misses just started fencing classes, today when she gets back ill ask her how many times she missed her strikes... seriously they dont need their blood testing you and all the other posters saying you can always strike a moving combatant need your brain testing. lol seriously. Your all either very short on life experience or we have some serious sporting talent gracing our forums...

And in real life there are no fairys, dragons, goblins and orcs

/end thread