Prevented from achieving the ridiculous results through the standard game. You can still use console commands or cheat. This isn't just "for me". It is about creating a rule set that is balanced appropriately. I would not care as much however if I could modify the difficulty better as I played. That is the option I would prefer, but from a logic standpoint - yes Enchanting and Smithing are imbalanced.

and what i'm saying is it shouldn't ever be limited in any way. there should always be a way without console commands or cheats or mods be able to be a way to make super weapons or armors, or spells. for the simple reason the people might want to do those things. i think you should have the right to have a difficulty slider that makes the game as challenging as you want. but people should also have the ability to make god characters. TES has always had those options, and if it's not for you then i'm sorry.

Thank you.

I naturally reached 100 in smithing just as i did with one handed for example, because it's my most active skill. It was natural. It's not like i grinded my ass off to become God Almighty. I actually reached 100 in smithing at about 37 or 38 i can't be accurate there. You know what's funny? Some people that have read this thread will think the OP, in this case me, did everything to reach 100 at early levels just so he could be overpowered. This is wrong. I really took my time getting there and now that i got there, i am unhappy about the outcome. That's it.

And again you are right, it's truly hard to find gentleman whom you can have a nice and interesting discussion about this or that particular subject. That's what i tried to do in the first place. But no, i get to be flamed by those who claim i grinded iron daggers just to max it out (i could call him names but this is a public forum with rules and regulations, besides i try to be polite... although in all honesty that little fellow did deserve a really bad answer).

Cheers.

These skills are set up so that if you use them naturally, they do not level up to overpowered, they level to stay with your character's needs However, in the game, one does not have that many opportunities to craft. By this I mean, nothing in the game requires the use of these skills other than a support role (making healing potions for instance). If I make enough healing potions to keep my character alive with the ingredients I find, my Alchemy will not level up that fast. If I take steps to grind the skill by cleaning out an alchemists inventory of ingredients, waiting a day and repeating this, then my alchemy will level up real fast. Same with Smithing and Enchanting. I am an Enchanting fiend, that is what is on every weapon I use and I go through Soul Gems like there is nobodies business. But, my level 41 (42?) character has Enchanting at 71, about where it should be.

Crafting is not over powered unless someone chooses to make it so. However, to make Crafitng so that it can't be over powered for those who grind it, will ruin it for everyone who just plays the game. I don't want my game Nerfed because someone else can not control what they do in the game.


I was just using your post to have an point to argue to, I was not picking on you or what you said. If it came across that way, My Bad.

In fact, I chose your argument because you used a reasonable number for the skill and I know what can be done in the game at level 60 of Smithing and what the results of using a weapon created with that skill set. Why? Because my Smithing slowly got to that level and I only used to make new armor or weapons for me or my companion as they were needed. It was the levels between 60 and 100 that I focused on, and that was just so I could make Dragon Armor to see what it was like. I doubt I will ever take Smithing up to 100 again in future play throughs, as my character did not really need it to be that high. It could have been at 60 for the rest of my game and I would have been doing just fine.

they are a bit powerful, but the downside is at lower levels you can be in serious trouble as levelling these professions will force you to level up, making enemies stronger while your weapon/magic and armor skills remain low, can be quite a challenge if you start levelling professions early. That being said, after my first char, I focus only on one profession per character now, prevents over-levelling and balance issues.

And i really hope they ignore your perfect ignorance. You are so off this thread.

This is pretty much all that needs to be said regarding this debate. Well said.

Grinding and the rate at which you develop the skill have nothing to do with it, it's the end result that's overpowered. Smithing low level things like leather bracers out of the hides of animals you kill is the only "natural" way to level this skill, if you take that away all you're doing is making it more tedious and forced. I'd have liked it if they'd left in gear degradation, then you could level smithing "naturally" by keeping your gear repaired, but even with that added, you're still going to reach level 100 at some point, and at that point you're going to be able to one shot everything.

You also can't just ramp up the difficulty of enemies (though I wouldn't mind seeing some bigger battles) - if you do that, magic, whose damage output does not benefit from smithing or enchanting and is therefore a lot lower, would become even more underpowered.

Yup.

But the OP is going to get mad again when he reads this.

My dear Moderator, have you not read my previous posts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gkc3h9pdeM8

tes has NEVER been about balance. That video is from MORROWIND. Thats a spell you can make with NO mods. Thats one of the fun things about past tes games. You can flex your creative muscles and make stuff that makes you godlike. But you earn it by thinking it up. In oblivion im pretty sure you can make outfits that relect 100% damage back on opponet. But to do this kind of stuff you pretty much have to have put some time into the game. THATS the main problem with skyrim. You can make godlike items to earlier (say in the first 10-20 hours where as oblivion it took at least 30... you would have to do the mages guild quest to get access to the spellmaking/enchanting stuff so you felt like you earned it.. then you had to have the money to do it to.)

Can't these threads just get locked already? It's the same argument over and over again.

Yeah, only that was not what I quoted.
I responded to the 'Oh, just use the console' nonsense.
And it is nonsense. First of all, it has nothing to do with the game or game balance and second of all the majority of people do not play on a pc.
This particular argument gets touted every now and then and it is always annoying.
Just a non-sequitor that contributes nothing to the discussion and usually has nothing to do with it too.

There is a difference between a sustained argument and a loose one. I made a point.

i agree about gear degeneration, that would increase the number of times you would be naturally using the smithing skill there for it would be balanced more so that it takes more uses to level up. however, regarding the end result. given your personal preference i would say you should, given your acknowledgment of the overpowered status of the final smithing benefits, choose not to apply them when they get to the point of no longer being fun for you.

im not saying don't smith, i am saying keep using it as long as it remains fun and stop when it is no longer fun. maybe you are expressing your desire for it to never stop being fun, I assure you that once any one finds out how to make anything stay fun forever they won't keep it a secret.

Probably....we all have. They still make no sense.

I smell what you're steppin' in CC.

After my experience with the Dragon armor I never returned either. ( to the perk that is ) I still take Smithing to 100 but do not forego the perks. Unless I want to craft some custom gear. As long as I can upgrade an item to Legendary status I'm happy. Actually I don't think that any item should exceed 200%. Improve it to Legendary and cap it, no matter the influence of other skills, items or potions.

They still make no sense because either you refuse to understand or you just don't understand what is the point here. The point is about scaling, about the ratio between the tools you are provided in game to boost your character and game difficulty.

Problem is, the armchair game designers who keep making these whine threads don't truly understand what "balance" in a game means, except for themselves. The power gamers want things nerfed, so that they aren't so powerful from their powergaming their characters, but that leaves things unplayable for everyone else who don't bother with powergaming at all.

They seem to only be capable of thinking of something as "balanced" in only their terms.


Because many of us are, in fact, playing the same game, and thus many of us know just how much grinding actually is required, and just how quickly level progression in skills can occur. Every time I played naturally, I had to grind my smithing to keep it up with my other skills. But if I grinded out my crafting skills early, my combat would suffer because I wouldn't be able to withstand as much damage, even with my improved armor, and I couldn't put out enough damage fast enough to even justify the effort at combat in the first place.

Besides that, smithing alone is not enough to make a character powerful. I've had powerfully improved bows that weren't worth using because I had no perks in archery. And that's what is so absurd about saying any single one of them is "overpowered" -- The fact that to actually make armor or weapons more powerful requires taking perks that boost those skills, not just relying on smithing/enchanting/alchemy.

And on top of that, to even make enchanting or alchemy useful for what all of you whiners are on about, you have to actually train those skills and take several applicable perks in those skill trees.

To make alchemy powerful enough: Grind out to the maximum, and take a minimum of 3 perks (Alchemist > Physician > Benefactor) to a maximum of 7 (All 5 levels of Alchemist)
To make smithing powerful enough: Grind out to the maximum, and take whatever perks apply to your preference in armor tier and armor class (light armor to Elven, for instance, or perhaps heavy armor only to Orcish), and to truly make it as powerful as everyone likes to say it is, requires synergizing with Enchanting and Alchemy and their requisite perks
To make enchanting powerful enough: Grind out (very [censored] tedious) and take a minimum of 4 perks (you will need the insightful enchanter to make skill-based enchantments worthwhile), to a maximum of 11 (all perks that boost enchanting, skill-based enchants, the corprus enchanter perk, Extra Effect perk, and the three elemental perks -- the right side of the enchanting tree isn't really all that necessary.)

So to truly make these skills overpowered, you would first have to level the skills each 100, and then you will be looking at taking upwards of about 18 perks, give or take a few depending on personal choices (I usually ignore the elemental branch of the enchanting tree, leaving me 3 perks less).

It takes a somewhat significant investment of time in order to achieve that level of power in your character in order to become powerful in the first place. I haven't even accounted for how much money it would potentially cost to acquire all the necessary materials, which would become especially expensive for enchanting.


Nice insult, there. I've seen enough of your posting here and there the time I've spent on the forums, so I'll just skip dignifying you with more of a response and use the ignore setting. Thank you for your time and valuable insight!

Excellent grammar, by the way. I've become too used reading text speech, but I'm glad I've not forgotten its tenor.


But that's akin to the comparison of how many like to order the given choice of pizza to be further modified with the person's own toppings in addition and those who just went with the lone option on the menu of the same choice, only modifiable by a few additions to the original form per the pizzeria's offered options.

Some people have the time to build upon someone else's work to make it into something more, and oftentimes caters more to a niche interest within the larger group, and plenty of people are satisfied with what's already on offer.

Which is probably why anyone who is probably anyone who would know about having these kinds of options in the first place, is on PC. Doesn't mean that there aren't those on consoles who wish for the same potential at some point (360 here, I'd love for some form of the CK usable with Skyrim. Far Cry 2 had a full-fledged map maker and even a user-based upload system where they could be shared with everyone else, voted on, that sort of thing).


Thank you for saying something that really did need saying. Nuance in phrasing can be hard to pick up on through just text, because you can't see the accompanying face, so word choice certainly does become paramount in how one gets interpreted.


And I don't mean to sound like I'm knocking modding, because all great art and great works tends to be built upon others, but it's also that you're imposing your own tastes and perspective as to "how it should have been" compared to what was their intention and perspective of the same. And it's one thing when you think it should be "fixed" compared to how others might have no issue whatsoever with it, and not even because they're "abusing to make the game too easy" but because plenty enough people know to play as they wish and make a journey of it instead of measuring how much of a race to some perceived finish line it's supposed to be.

I just realized on my 6th character that I have gotten myself nearly to 40 and I still have not discovered more than what is probably 20% of the map. All I've been doing is just being a sneaky Khajiit, stealing every single thing, and otherwise hunting pelts with a bow. Sad part is, I haven't gotten a single fence yet, not having really started with the Thieves Guild, and so much of that stolen gear has been dumped if it wasn't a potion I could use. My archery is okay, my sneak is fantastic, and my armor is pitiful. A stiff breeze could probably seriously wound me. And I can't make enough money yet to get my smithing leveled to 60 for the Arcane perk, and buying gems for enchanting leaves me relentlessly poor. Alchemy can be a money maker, but I (as in I, me, myself, and not my character) still need to go to the bookstore to get a new book.

the post limit for every thread is 200 posts. at most only 200 of the thousands of active members of these forums can participate in one as long as every one limits themselves to one post.

so its logical and expected that not every one has had their chance to take part in these debates, if you however feel tired of participating in these threads its your choice. however its not rational to censor an entire subject because slightly more than half of the people have had a chance to take part.

Exactly. The problem is that obtaining this level of power is so easy that by just leveling up the skills and taking the Perks creates the issues. Alchemy does take quite some time to level. Smithing, is an absolute joke. Talk to Trainers, buy materials when you come back from a quest, and you can have 100 Smithing by 25 easily. Powerlevling you can do so by level 8. It is the MEANS that is the problem, not the outcome. Players who take Perks and level a skill break their game. I am not challenged to get this. I have no problem if there is some weapon that lets me nearly one shot everything, or armor that makes me invincible, but the fact I can pretty much not even engage in combat and just buy materials? The Perk system is the problem. Why do they even have Perks for crafting professions???

So I'll spam this thread a lot so we can get it locked then.

The point being that a small number of players wont restrain themselves from breaking mechanics in the game, yes. we. know.

And you are refusing to understand that there are ways to limit your character progression and skill improvement.

and you would get a warning and some one would remake this thread and put a #2 infront of it? is it worth it?