Fair enough


Okay explain that to the soliders who wear body parts of their enemies. Its a scare tactic. If you wear pieces of your enemies clothing your clearly indicating that you killed of one their kind and are brazen enough to wear it into battle against them even though your troops may not completely identify you. Its showing dominance/confidence and every bit helps in battle, especially if it makes the enemy weary/nervous. Maybe wearing the entire outfit wouldn't make sense, but unfortunately games haven't gotten to the point were I can mix and match very small pieces of an outfit


The Brotherhood alternative does not have the same look. It makes the chestplate an ugly green. That also conflicts with the whole disguise thing. Why shouldn't the green plated T51-b Brotherhood power armor cause the NCR to attack? Its exactly the same except a slight difference in color.


Really? Hmm, I'll have to check that, but companions getting lost wasn't exclusive to HH.

Bodyparts, not their clothes. Soldiers don't exactly kill enemy soldiers and then immediately strip themselves to wear the enemy gear.
Or if it is their gear, it's only parts. Maybe a helmet? The Legion in NV does this, but their BASIC uniform is obviously Legion. They just have a super mutant helmet or a BoS pauldron, but they're still the typical red color with the man-skirt.

Well you can always ally the BoS with the NCR to fix it. Otherwise, only the NCR will take offense, so no real worries, save for them.

And I'm not 100% sure on that. I just remember HH sparked the terminal and I'm 90% sure I remember the complaint of "why doesn't it automatically dismiss companions."

I was being flippant. I would hardly see cannibals as any kind of notable feature of our world - I would certainly not try to argue the world of Skyrim is comparably civillised.

I don't really understand your point. If they like you or are indifferent, you don't need a disguise. If they hate you, you do. That's all there is to it really.



Not in every case, and the new ones were in response to fan requests. They probably under-anticipated exactly how fashion conscious some players are so they responded to requests. So if Beth ever did faction armour, they could bear this in mind and offer full alternatives from the outset.


If you infiltrate, you're in disguise. As the faction armour system accommodates.
"Trophies" are just that. Are you now suggesting an American GI looked just like a Viet Cong by virtue of his necklace of Vietnames ears?

Hell Dave! I nearly shot you there! I saw all those ears and thought you must be one of them! Don't get your skull out for god's sake!

Don't worry Brad, this is Bethesda Vietnam - nobody cares what anybody else is wearing anyway. The Viet Cong are all wearing our uniforms today anyway. To mock us.



I find myself thinking about interesting mechanics that enhance an RPG experience. Role playing may include NPCs actually responding to the role you've taken on.

Inspiration is EVERYTHING.

When someone combines the power of an engine like Skyrim and tools like the CK with the sort of digital commerce 2nd Life wanted to be but never quite became, putting the power to derive meaningful revenue from quality design endeavors in the hands of more than just major players that are already rich with money to invest in the time for major projects most of the community otherwise never seems to have, the world of gaming will change forever.

Until then we remain largely at the mercy of as I said, time, as well as the whims of what direction those existing major players decide to take, or the offerings of other wealthy virtual entrepreneurs with the resources to enter the game.

I predict there will be a long, painful period of exclusive competition, even to the point of new technologies to outright STEAL intellectual property right out of the minds of defenseless "little guys" to fuel the waning ability of major players to "use the force," before we ever see that system emerge that would make a true digital economy possible, where adequate diversity of inspiration is enabled by a system that rewards ALL people fairly for their energy and time expended, not just those that are already rich and can afford fancy IP lawyers to write their EULA.

The rift between wealth and poverty has never been greater. The wealthy will be immortal long before life for most people has even begun, or we have had the privilege to know real freedom. Meanwhile the number one super power on earth hasn't even socialized medicine, and our best offering in light of more human labor obsolete by technology is emphasizing jobs, like telling a starving man "go eat something!" Public housing might as well be the offspring of Satan and 1984 in the minds of most people, and meanwhile we remain contentedly defenseless against biotechnology.

So, it isn't like the gaming industry is the only entity slow to adapt in modern times. We have a LONG way to go yet it seems before real INSPIRATION is even possible for most people, being still constantly yoked to mere necessity.

No offense to those existing players mind you. I do enjoy what many of these companies have to offer.

/tangent

Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

Definite gamebreaker. Faction armour fails.

You cited cannibalism in Skyrim as a reason why it wasn't civilized. I cited cannibalism in our world as a reason why thats a bad example. Yes of course the world of Skyrim isn't as civilized as our world, but its more civilized then Fallouts.


My point is if they idolize me, why can't I wear whatever the heck I want around them? Why do I all of a sudden become the target of everyone's gunfire if I wear armor they deem "inappropriate"?



Sigh...something must have got lost in translation here. Idk if you have noticed, but one can't exactly take someone else's skull (or pieces of their clothing) in FNV or Skyrim. If I want to wear CL armor to battle against them as the closest way of demonstrating dominance why can't I? Why does the NCR feel the need to shoot me just because I'm wearing a fallen enemies armor even though I freaking saved their president?



I understand, but Hitman is dedicated to the whole disguise thing. It doesn't have as many variables as games like FNV and Skyrim do.


Did you read the rest of my point or did you simply nitpick that out to give a deluded response?


Yeah I understand. I don't mean to say wearing the whole uniform makes sense, but parts of it do and I had that clarified in my post by saying you currently can't take pieces of it.


I don't very much like the NCR, it just svcks that a lot of the side quests can only be done if you aren't hated by them.


Gotcha.

The NCR also have power armour that looks very similiar, the salvaged power armour. The idea is it's identifying insignia. You can argue power armour may make anbody think you're BoS from a difference, but the game gives a compromise between realism and gameplay. It gives you specific faction armour, but slightly different alternatives. As gamedesign, this gives the player the faction armour dynamic without it getting too in your face and spoling gameplay. The PA was important as it's a rare item which is doubtless why they thought about this for the base game. They probably did not anticipate players wanting to wander round NCR bases dressed as legion or the like.

Heh yeah For me skyrim and oblivion is kinda the same,I havent played arena much but i liked how a text apperead when you entered a inn or something "You hear music as you entered and people laughing and having a great time" or something like that(sorry for bad english=

I can give multiple reasons why it isn't civilised - bears wandering around the main roads attacking people, fortresses full of bandits on major roads, people challenging you to magic duels and attacking you in the middle of a city while the guards just watch. I could go on all day. And I've forgotten what the point was in thefirst place anyway.


Because they see an enemy uniform. You can argue they should know it's you specifically if you're in the camp and suddenly change, but games cannot operate on that level of subtlety. Game mechanics cannot simulate reality perfectly. But the mechanic allows recognition of friend and foe by their identity. Which is better IMO than soldiers not attacking someone dressed as their bitter enemy marching into their base.

That's like a British soldier in WWII saying why can't I fight dressed as a German soldier because I've won the Victoria Cross.

Your point about trophies made no sense because trophies are not a uniform.


I was making a point about people whining just because they can't dress as the enemy of the faction they're helping. This is back to Longkife's point about no limitations.


That bit was funny.

The NCR salvaged power armor is an entirely different model of power armor. Both the BoS power armor's are T-51b's (salvaged is T-45d I think), just one has a little more wear an tear on it. I'm not saying I'm against the idea of faction based armor, but it needs really good implementation for it to make sense. As it was in NV I didn't really like it because there wasn't any middle ground to it really. It was either people hated you, or they liked you, but there are tons of other variables that should affect it.

I played NV, on my XBox, last month. I bought a used copy because I read good things about the game on the forum, But, I was nervous because I'd also read numerous "bug" comments.

I finished the game without having any major issue that I can remember. This could be due to the particular path I chose throughout the game. At any rate ... I didn't run into anything "within a few hours" of starting the game that was in any way a game or quest "breaker".

But "Skyrim bugginess vs. NV bugginess" isn't what the thread is about, so I'll just get back to the OP.

And I agree that there is no reason that the a TES game couldn't include logic re: "If you wear a certain faction armor it affects some aspects of the game.".

Though in terms of Skyrim, this might only be pertinent for the Legion - Stormcloak "disagreement."

You could expand it to include Nightingale, DB, and Forsworn so-called armor.

However in these cases, and if the game followed any sort of logic, presumably everyone outside of your own faction would attack you, assuming people actually recognized the DB or Nightingal armor for what it was.

And this might not work for the crowd who wants the ability to "do anything" however, don't seem keen on living with the logical outcomes of certain "do anything" scenarios.

For example, some might want to spend the game running around in DB armor however, the logical outcome of this would be for just about everyone, e.g., town guard, legionarre, etc., ... to attack you on sight.

Which might throw your game off a bit and prevent you from getting all "achievements", guild master status, etc. as quickly as possible or, in some cases, at all.

And if you chose to be a DB member, presumably entry to other guilds might be barred to you.

Which would seem logical given that for everything else in Skyrim, everyone seems to know what you've done, e.g., steal, even when there are no witnesses in the vicinity to see you do it.

So on this basis, obviously everyone would know you've joined the DB immediately after you've done so and perhaps might not be keen on you joining their guild ... much less make you guild master.

But then, you might come here and carry on about how the game "stopped you" from doing something, etc.

So the larger issue is that some people want to "do anything" but don't necesarrily want to deal with what might seem to most to be the logical outcome/consequence of that choice.

And to reduce the chance of a player being "upset" by some sort of unforseen consequence to a decision they've made, Skyrim has been created as pretty much a logic-free zone.

And I mean "logic" that is, or should be, appropriate within the game world.

And in my view, this is ... as Longknife and others have more or less said ... a conscious decision by Beth to focus the game on the "I want to do everything and get every "achievement" as quickly as possible" player who will run through the game once and then never visit ... except perhaps for the occasional DLC ... Nirn again.

And maybe that's a good business decision ... at least in the relative short-term ... on Beth's part.

And the fact is that if you don't have to really care much about choice/consequence type things or worry about anything appearing "logical" ... e.g., why not let me stroll in off the street to Ulfric's palace in full legion armor and have him ramble on about about his stategy and have nobody pay me the slightest heed at all ... it's likely much easier to build the game and just focus on the eye candy stuff.

And if you want to be a bit cynical about it, this works well because it keeps players and reviewers going "ooh, ah beautiful" for a period of time after the intial release ... so you get great reviews and if these happen to change a bit after a bit of time goes by and people have played more and start to notice a few "not so beautiful" things, it doesn't really matter because the games have already been sold.

Just throw in a few "flying vampire lord" type gimmicks every once in awhile and everybody is happy .

I'd suggest that the real "issues" that result in these threads popping up is that some folks are still expecting a TES game to deliver on their RPG needs ... and I am in no way saying they are wrong in this regard ... rather than just accepting that TES games are now an action/hiking simulator game with a few vestiges of fantasy genre RPG elements left in to dress it up and just leave things at that.

Yeah but the point was you see a guy in power armour that from a distance would look like power armour.

I agree about implementation and it could be developed further - but I think the whole point is bethesda should be taking these ideas and using them. A lot of ideas take a bit of refinement and tinkering - hardcoe could have been done a bit better, but at least it was there and you could use it. Saying something didn't work quite as well as maybe it could is not a reason for not having it at all.

I'm sorry but why are you still arguing with me on this? I just said Skyrim's world isn't as civilized as ours, I was merely saying it was more civilized then Fallout's.


This is pretty much why I didn't like its implementation in FNV. It restricted to much without making sense. I don't know if you've ever looked at the G.E.C.K (modding tool for FO3 and FNV), but the way the faction based armor works is really simple. Nothing Obsidian did is ground breaking. Basically, all the factions in the game have an ID and a list of friendly factions and enemy factions (one can modify these if they see fit). What Obsidian did is they added an effect per se to the armor's in FONV that allowed them to select which faction it belonged to from a drop down of all the Faction ID's. As soon as the player character puts the armor on, they are added to the faction. This is a very rudimentary why of doing it because, like I said, its either friendly or enemy. There is no in between. NCR soliders already attack enemy CL's NPCs so the soldiers do attack the enemy, they just shouldn't attack me when I'm idolized.


I'm questioning if your reading my posts. I wasn't saying "trophies" specifically. I was referring to multiple things that are symbols of intimidation against the enemy. I also said games like FNV+Skyrim don't allow you to take "trophies" from your enemy or bits of their clothing. If I could use bits of CL clothing and combine it with the NCR stuff this would be a moot point, but I can't so the closest thing I can do is wear they're armor.


I understand and I'm not saying disguises are a bad thing, but they just don't work well enough for them not to be a hindering experience (imo) in FNV. That's not to say they couldn't be, but Hitman is a good example of a game that utilizes disguises well. However, Hitman is also a game I buy to disguise myself and me a, well, hitman. I didn't Skyrim expecting the game to perfectly recognize my faction, standing, character, etc and change based on it.


Glad you enjoyed it

EDIT:

I would like to point out that I think Bethesda should have definitely done something like this with the Dark Brotherhood stuff. It would make sense for most people (maybe not a farmer), especially guards to attack you if your walking around in freaking Dark Brotherhood clothing.


Idk, I'd rather not have faction armor then have it the way FNV implemented it. Who knows, maybe Bethesda did toy with the idea but it didn't make the cut. Like I said, the way Obsidian did it wasn't really hard as the system Bethesda gave them already had faction acknowledgment implemented.

Unfortunately that does seem to be Bethesda's modus operandi. If it doesn't quite work right, axe it.

I think you're essentially correct - and it's very sad you are.

I also think the fear is a bit unfounded - detractors of NV call it an expensive mod and they do have a point - outdated, buggy engine, outdated graphics that looked old before it was released. Yet it sold millions - surely a big part of that was the Fallout name, but also it was a good game and people were not totally alienated by the mechanics - in fact it got its praise for its writing and gameplay, its criticism for its bugginess and some locations being dull. It proved that people will buy and enjoy big name realeases on the strength they are a decent RPG.

With the DB, the whole idea that secret assassins should all be wearing the same gimp suit is totally nonsensical in the first place. It's like thieves guild armour - Hey guys! check me out! I'm officially a thief! I have the t-shirt that says I AM A THIEF lol. It's like going round with a bag with SWAG written on the side. It would be far better to get some totally unique, neutral armour within those questlines - instead thieves and assassins all have a uniform which is about the most stupid idea ever.

I agree. I liked the Black Hand Listeners robes in Oblivion because they were still evilish looking, but they didn't give anything away really. The robes in Skyrim have a huge freaking red fabric in the middle with a Black Hand symbol on it announcing to the world your an assassin. I wouldn't mind a uniform attire, but a guild based around assassinations shouldn't wear something that damn obvious.

Skyrim is not the sequel to fallout new vegas, Its a completely different game made by a different team, its like saying that because I can use camouflage to blend in with the environment on metal gear solid 3 I should be able to do it in skyrim as well.

People are so quick to complain about features that are missing from other games instead of praising all the great things you can do in skyrim.

Just play new vegas is its more to your liking.

I think you started going on about cannibals in our world.
I think it's debatable as to whether Skyrim is more civilised than NV, but that's not really the issue.

I'd agree if it can be done in a more sophisticated way it should be. Mechanics should be open to further development. But at a basic level I'd argue it makes more sense for NPCs to attack someone who looks like an enemy than to ignore someone who looks like an enemy.



NPCs will ignore helmets on their own which is the closest you can get.


Would you not buy Skyrim if you knew NPCs would react to some armours?



As I just said in another post, DB armour makes no sense anyway, neither does thieves guild armour. Ironically, as overt organisations that don't hide themselves, the companions don't have any. And of course the mages at Hogwarts don't.

I agree, OP.
On another NV note, I would have loved to have seen no essential NPCs.

EDIT: The only time that there is any hint of faction armour is

For TES 6 they'll probably have armour with I KILL FOR MONEY in red on the front and DIAL 08975 MURDER on the back.

It's a wonder the Skyrim sanctuary lasted as long as it did.

So what you're saying is devs should ignore all the good features other games their company published have that could improve their games because they didn't develop that game themselves?

If using camouflague would enhance Skyrim, surely they should think about it? It's not like they're afraid of copying Hollywood for their DLC - drawing off a game they themselves published if it presents possible game emhancements is a good idea surely?

Or should they just stick to adding more super powers?

Well, the Companions do have the Wolf armor, it's just that almost no one actually wears it. Which is odd when you consider the quest you go one with Farkas.

I forgot about that. I wonder if they originally intended them to all have armour.

I'm actually glad they don't. IMO they look better as mercs having no set armour.

Haha, lets just forget it then


They should definitely be expanded upon as it has potential. Obsidian's implementation was just a basic extension of what was already present :/


That is true, which is kind of ironic since your face is the most recognizable trait about you, yet covering that up doesn't seem to make people question who you are


I'd still buy Skyirm


They should each have uniqueish outfits that kind of portray them as being assassins, but not like you said "Hey everyone I work for the DB and kill people so just tap me on the shoulder if you want someone killed. K thx".

Oh yeah, that "hidden" sanctuary. My god, it took me forever to find that place it was so hard to find. I mean, its not like it had a little dirt road leading down to it from the main road or anything...