Is Skyrim a good RPG or TES game? Thread #3

Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:36 pm

It's an open world, yes, but with linear themeparks spread around in it. You have the Companions themepark, the Dark Brotherhood themepark, the College etc, and no, they don't blend. At most you unlock a chest you can store crap in and more obnoxious guard comments.
Without going into spoilers, someone from the Thieves Guild is hinted to have a past with the DB. Why not recognize that if your thief joins DB?
Similarly, a certain grumpy mage in DB has a past in the College, but he won't even go "HMPF!" if you have completed the College questline (and probably be an obvious target for his scorn). And let's just forget about the Civil War questline all together.

There's lots of such examples and it just screams "wasted potential" at me.

You make a good point as that is one thing that I was disappointed in, that NPCs did not react to what the player has done, especially if you become head of a guild.
But there are other areas that Skyrim is much improved in.

Diverse landscapes and dungeons which was a big complaint people had with Oblivion. Gameplay/ fighting is a lot more fun. Even the levelling system has changed so someone can just play the game without worrying about x5 ing their stats. Ofc I did not like that they took out stats such as strength, willpower etc as they could have kept them while improving the levelling system, but they still resolved a problem many had issues with. The magic system, I was disappointed that they took out spell making but using magic now is just a lot more fun to use. And although there weren’t as many guild quests as with previous games, the quality of the quests were a lot better.

If I were to describe Skyrim against previous elder scrolls games, I would say it was the complete opposite of oblivion. Where Oblivion had many more handmade quests but with a generic landscape, Skyrim has a handcrafted landscape but with many more generic quests (although the hand crafted quests it does have are much better than oblivions in my opinion).
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Horror- Puppe
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:09 pm

^ are you writing like that on purpose? And no I didn't just start playing last month. Dont assume things. I shouldn't have to be using my mind to fill in the flaws of a weak game. Its like imagining that your driving that sweet 10,000 $ Porsche down the highway when in reality your really pushing it along due to it's weak rusty engine and faulty wiring...

I me myself started playing last month.
As far as using imagination, u dont have to follow the quests and exactly how they tell you to weither it fits ur charector or not. In skyrim, u have to do it their way, what the story decides for you, im implinying that in morrowind u had more choices that u could make AND complete alot of the quests by doing what you or the charector would do, not what the story forces you to.

andddd i gave examples, to which people who said that morrowind didnt have any choices or that skyrim had the same amount of choices have failed to give examples of.
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neil slattery
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:07 am

Been reading since page 1, an interesting discussion nonetheless however both sides have valid points.

One thing that's really starting to nark me off though is the label "RPG" that's being thrown around. Seriously there are many types of RPG's and claiming that Skyrim isn't even an RPG is ridiculous and grasping at straws.

Skyrim is a good example of a FPS RPG with action/adventure elements (Or should it be the other way around...) and is a good example of gameplay evolution from Oblivion (However Oblivion was a downgrade in quality from Morrowind, both in gameplay/story).
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Sandeep Khatkar
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:52 pm

Hello? Morrowind's entire main quest is non-linear, you just need to find the ring and disprove "one does not simply walk into Mordor.". I mean, it is a real RPG, you can recognize it from right here, no railroading. There are options for diplomatic solutions and bloodshed in almost every quest where it can be applied. Maybe random quests are diluting the experience in Skyrim.



Also do not come up with Forsworn Conspiracy or
Spoiler
Paarthurnax
fiasco. I so wanted to join Forsworn, my first real disappointment in Skyrim. If you can't provide this, don't include a questline like that. And
Spoiler
Paarthurnax... Esbern comes and say
:

"Hey, kill him or gtfo."

:swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear: :swear:

That's not choice. Choice is convincing Esbern that
Spoiler
Paarthurnax
is an ally. I so much hate this choices&consequences [censored]. This is filed under railroading, not choice. I am glad Morrowind doesn't have that [censored]. I mean, if I could convince Esbern but then
Spoiler
Paarthurnax
betrayed. And Esbern goes, "What did I say!"... Now, that's a good story. If somehow, Esbern betrays us, even better story! If both available: RPG.

I mean, I [censored] missed the ending to Skyrim's main quest. I was looking elsewhere. I guarantee, you can't miss Morrowind's MQ ending. I wonder, how it would look in modern graphics. It is something out of a LOTR movie.

Someone should make a mod that removes all quests except "In My Time Of Need", and similar quests to that. Whenever I do quests, the game gets me more and more pissed. :D I am completely fine with 10 quests if necessary, quality over quantity.

^ are you writing like that on purpose? And no I didn't just start playing last month. Dont assume things. I shouldn't have to be using my mind to fill in the flaws of a weak game. Its like imagining that your driving that sweet 10,000 $ Porsche down the highway when in reality your really pushing it along due to it's weak rusty engine and faulty wiring...
He was referring to himself when he said "who started last month", not you.

In Morrowind's case, you don't have to be using your imagination to fill in parts of the game, the game has the parts, plentifully, you use your imagination on your part.

And I also wonder why he writes like that. Maybe he is on a phone. If not, I recommend http://www.opera.com/, it includes a spell checker.
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Amysaurusrex
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:16 pm

hell even the perks are restrictive and give less choice. Now dont get me wrong, I like the perks, I kust feel they were done wrong and ill explain.
In morrowind I could make a mage that was an excellent boxer. Now im not even gonna throw in about unarm, because hopefully that will change, but in mw all I had to do was throw points into str and bam my mage could be harder to stagger as well give harder punches, where as in skyrim my mage would have to not only have be a heavy armor specialist but be wearing heavy armor for it to apply no matter that I perked for it.
Is it game breaking? Nah, but restrictive? Yes.
Right now atributes do give more flexiblilty, but if the perk system was overhauled and expanded then I dare say when that happens it would be much less of an issue, but in its current state its very restrictive for the rp players and hell anyone who just wants to do a crazy setup.
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Everardo Montano
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:51 am

I'm worried to wonder if the arguments in this thread closed it twice, and this is the third version...

I won't go into detail, but damn. You guys have a lot of insecurity issues. I'm not saying I don't either, but jesus christ. Can't we all get along? Have constructive criticism instead of outright trash talk?

It's a little ridiculous at this point. :l
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Marnesia Steele
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:54 am

And I write like this I apologize because I have muscle spasms and alot of times hit the wrong keys plus im not the best at spelling. Sorry if my writing ways offends, just sometimes takes to long and I dont realize that its a train wreck until afterwards, sorry.
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Queen of Spades
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:02 am

I'm worried to wonder if the arguments in this thread closed it twice, and this is the third version...

I won't go into detail, but damn. You guys have a lot of insecurity issues. I'm not saying I don't either, but jesus christ. Can't we all get along? Have constructive criticism instead of outright trash talk?

It's a little ridiculous at this point. :l

A "little" you say ? :dry:

I was excited at first when i've joined this forum by accident searching for a possible solution to a Skyrim bug;

now i'm bored to death to read the same old arguments repeated ad infinitum that lead to the usual "personal attacks" and childish behavior.

No one forces me of course,but is tedious even scrolling the threads and see always the same topics listed.

Personally, i think that Skyrim is a very good action/adventure game of the Tes series with some Rpg element. Perhaps i've to put it in my signature. :biggrin:
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[ becca ]
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:54 am

Edit

There we go, lets get back into the debate.
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Stephanie Kemp
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:20 am

^

I was never specific on any names. For all you know, you're not involved in this, but there are a lot of flaming arguments going on in the above posts. I can't see how any of it is constructive criticism.
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Darlene DIllow
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:30 am

im sorry i didnt know i was doing personal attacks but debating and doing constructive critism

Don't put ever in a childish way for god sake...please.

It was simply a remark from mine of a general behavior that i've noted here,not only on this particularly thread.
To me a constructive criticism is another matter; but this is not "my forum" and i can't decide for you what attitude you should pursue,the most i could done is giving my opinion here, or why not,a fair "suggestion" based on common sense and my life experience.

Plain and simple,no personal attacks,no wars etc. :smile:
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BEl J
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:02 am

Just out of curiosity, what does Oblivion do that makes some of you think Skyrim is an inferior experience. I find it surprising, because Skyrim seems to be "Oblivion II" in a way that Oblivion wasn't "Morrowind II".

I mean, yeah, there's a few things that Oblivion did better (most of the factions, for example) but I don't come to the same conclusion when presented with my own opinions. I'm just curious as to how other people do.

And I don't mean this in a condescending "You're wrong and I'm going to make yourself discover why you're wrong" way, I just want to better understand what different groups of ES players find most appealing in their ES experience.
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Dark Mogul
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:51 am

One thing that's really starting to nark me off though is the label "RPG" that's being thrown around. Seriously there are many types of RPG's and claiming that Skyrim isn't even an RPG is ridiculous and grasping at straws.



Indeed.

Heaven forbid what the ancient RPG`s on the Sinclair Spectrum would be termed as nowadays then...games like Bloodwych, Bards Tale etc.They were classed as RPG`s, basic as far as game mechanics went, but a lot of fun. Your imagination made the game even more better...no choices or consequences stuff, like Bioware games nowadays. Oh, your a generic baddy or goody...

I`ve even seen it stated on here that "RPG`s are about the multiple ways of play through a character"....bah. No, RPG`s are about ROLEPLAYING pure and simple. You don`t need Morrowind reborn to make a good RPG...

Comparing Skyrim to COD is just...silly. Skyrim IS an RPG whether you like the game or not. It might not be your idea of a TES game but it is an RPG or call it an ARPG as seems the rage nowadays.
A lot of the game mechanics are just hidden under the hood, less min and maxing. I applaud the decision of using the Perks - a brave move on Beth`s part and I personally find them great.

I think some people are wishing their lives away for Morrowind 2.0, well I could do the same wishing for Daggerfall 2.0 as I much preferred it over Morrowind, but hey it ain`t gonna happen.

Bethesda might have been better releasing Skyrim minus the lore, changing the race names and map locations, then marketing it as a generic standalone RPG. It would have kept the Nostalgia fans happier since they couldn`t compare it to MW.

I can only say that I find Skyrim a great game in my own opinion - I like the return to AI generated quests aka used in Daggerfall - sure they could use some tweaking and more variety perhaps. I love the brutal feel of combat in first person, without a doubt the best in a TES game so far (Morrowind`s combat was terrible). I think the game world is beautiful and has a great deal of content and detail - exploring is fun.

The guild quests do leave a bit to be desired, as does the civil war story. Missed opportunities there for sure.

Sure they could have made all the NPC`s non-essential like Morrowind, but then people would no doubt kill certain NPC`s and then wreck the quest line path - resulting in a deluge of complaints (More so than the currently bugged quest lines anyway).

Dragons could be toned down a bit in numbers and also tweaked a bit. A lot of these things could be addressed through future patches and DLC. In fact, done properly, Skyrim could become the best TES game to date.
The potential is all there.

I probably enjoy this game because I do not compare it to past TES games. When i`m playing, I don`t think "Daggerfall had much bigger dungeons than this one..." :smile:

Call it what you like, Skyrim is still an RPG. I also rate it as a fairly decent TES game that just needs some more polishing, tweaks and content.
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leni
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:50 am

A good RPG in my opinion is how well and immersive the game lets you play the role you want to play. Skyrim offers less ''roles'' for me to play as opposed to the previous TES games. I think it is also important for a good rpg to have many NPC that play interesting well written roles. Skyrim also barely offers this in my opinion.
It makes its inhabitants seem lifeless and my character less immersive.
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Tom Flanagan
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:45 am

It's not a good example of a RPG. Theres far better about, with more choice and roleplayability.
Lame and linear main quest, with less threat than My Little Pony and a weak villain.
Theres little to no consequences,
The game is rigged and tries to force you join the thieves guild constantly.
It tries to force you to join guilds to further the main quest and side quests, even though you may have zero interest in joining these factions.
Some of it is deeply unfair. Stupidly and unnesseserily locked dungeons, giant falmer statues you can't see without joining the freaking tg and then watching some idiot rip it's eyes out?!
You can't kill whoever you like, because of the most moronic ammount of essential tags ever.
It won't let you fail quests on purpose by killing people. NO, I don't want to do the damn quest, I want to kill them all!
It treats the player like a idiot.
You can't roleplay things as much as you should, because it won't let you be as good or evil as you want.
Not enough purely good options and facitons.
Less choice than some more traditional RPGs. Dragon Age Origins, has more choice than Skyrim. That's right, within the quests, you make more choices, than a openworld game. Fallout 3 has more choice than Skyrim. And that forces you evil, town exploding, slaver, kill happy, character to be a soppy daddys girl/boy in a stupidly linear main quest that won't let you side with the Enclave properly. That aside, it is 99% free. You can kill whoever you like, do whatever you want.
Some seriously bad and illogical writing.
Shallow game. NPCs sometimes look more like generic quest givers than people.
Is more like a free to play RPG, with respawning bosses, and other things, than it should be. I love FTP games. And that stuff is fine, in them. But when I buy a game, I expect more than cheap, respawning tactics.

A good TES game? Don't know, never played the others. But I suspect it's not good in comparision to some. The earlier ones sound better, in parts.
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Queen Bitch
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:08 am

The fundamental problem here is design ethos. As Todd has stated repeatedly, they start over with every game. Since he took over, that has led to the unrelated mish-mash that The Elder Scrolls series has become. To wit:

Arena- Pretty basic GURPS mechanics CRPG......except that, unlike any other CRPG of the time, you left the dungeon. In 1st person. That was a milestone. You had an entire continent to play on. Yes, yes, it has 1994 256 color graphics, but =for it time=, it was something impressive. And there was a sense of history, there. Even then it wasn't J-Random Euro fantasy. It was Tamriel.

Daggerfall- Something that, unfortunately, has yet to meet even a competitor, never mind a rival. Gameplay mechanics had increased by orders of magnitude (and you can see in the resource files where there were even more than were removed at the last second or deactivated for some reason). You had a main quest that had 6 possible endings, depending on your choices in game. You had 180,000 square miles of game area, and you could walk over every inch if you chose. No matter what guild you joined, you had to work your way to the top. You could customize your character out the wazoo. There was a reputation system that could, would, and did get in your way with certain factions; only makes sense that if you piss off the underworld by svcking up to the nobility, well, you don't get work from the scum and they send assassins to kill you. Of if you wallow in the gutter, the nobles won't look twice at you, and the shopkeepers are....hesitant....to deal with you. Yes, you could power level....right up until you got one of the first 5 skills to 100, and froze yourself out of leveling any further no matter what you did (aside from hacking the game, naturally).
Was it perfect? Not by a long shot. DF suffered from 3 major problems.
1) Technology. They were pushing DOS hard, and the system resources to play the game were brutal for the time.
2) Time. They simply ran out and had to go gold, leaving a lot of things unfinished.
3) Code. The code base of the time simply wouldn't support some of the things they were working on. If it had, we would have had mounted enemies to fight. Festivals on holy days with dancing, lights, the whole shebang. A prosttutes guild to go with the others (at least as a quest source), sailable and ownable ships and boats, and other cool things. But it was still 180,000 miles of worldspace, enough dungeons that you would never do them all in any reasonable time, enough lore to choke a dozen horses, and with the creation of tools by some of the original Daggerfools, you could create your own quests and storylines.

(I am deliberately bypassing Battlespire and Red Guard, and they are ES Adventure titles, not part of the main series)

Morrowind- This was Todd's first time at the helm, as well as the first time they had to design the game to allow porting to console. This was a critical point, as it limited the game's ability considerably. Like it or not, that is a fact. The original Xbox was running a customized Intel P-3 Coppermine core, with a grand total of 64 megs shared system ram (and the P4 had been released a year earlier, so it was already -well- behind the power curve). The limited, shared system ram severely limited the possible size of the world space; we went from 180,000 miles to slightly over 6-ish. The full changeover to 3D was accomplished here, so that was a plus. The graphics of the time were rough, so they compensated with better writing and more thought out storylines.

Oblivion- This was the end of the 3rd age.....and the first attempt to cut the corners and automate themselves into a corner. Radiant AI was touted as the next coming of Lord British....and it didn't work. Major features there had to be switched off to avoid game chaos (might be cute watching all the NPC's slaughter each other, but only once, you know?). The shift was heavily towards graphics; speedtree and the bigger memory pool the 360 has (not big, you understand, just bigger). sixy looking Ayleid ruins everywhere with no real reason to exist (particularly since, as the continental capitol, that space would have been -used-). They blew the design by having the aforementioned capitol of a continent spanning empire being a joystick shaped outpost in the wilderness, with no evidence of the coming and going needed to manage same. No legions, no barracks, no evidence of the local food crops needed, etc. There was a greater emphasis on voice acting over text.....and the limiting of choices in quests started to show more. They did pay attention to atmosphere in having things that could mess up the world affecting the world.....although most of the damage went away far too quickly & cleanly (they didn't even bother with the gimmick of having you wake up in hospital afterwards, unconscious for days, after the Grand Battle™. It just....went away).

Skyrim- One hell of a tech demo masquerading as an Elder Scrolls game (this despite the fact that the tech in question is at least 2 generations out of date). The world is static and unchanging.....despite the fact that, as this is supposed to be The End of Days (Armageddon, the Big Kiss-off, The Oh sh-T we're gonna get ea--!!), the environment doesn't reflect any reaction to the kind of power suddenly running loose. The animation system has really improved. Radiant AI seems to work better. Radiant story apparently inherited the gong from AI, as it doesn't seem capable of generating a FedEx quest worthy of Daggerfall, never mind a game 15 years its senior. You have choices that are no choice. Nothing you do affects you in the game world......and what you imagine between your ears is irrelevant. There is no urgency to the main quest whatsoever. Alduin engineers the escape of his greatest threat. And does nothing. You can honk around for a thousand game years, and nothing changes whatsoever to indicate that there is danger. You get the elder scroll and use it to kick Alduin's butt, and he goes away to chow down in Sovvengarde. And you can stand there another 10,000 game years and the bloody beast never returns. Does he eat so many souls in nordic heaven the aforementioned butt gets too big to squeeze through the portal back to Mundus, or what? You can sell your body and soul to Nocturnal, and none of the other daedra lords notice? Where are all the Vigilants of Stendarr that should be after you every second for being such a monster? I could go on, but these are sufficient examples of the way bling won over substance in this outing. There is no sense of theat from the main quest, most of the secondary questlines are far too short for the supposed payoff, and the few that are nice and developed and involving all walk on the dark side. Almost seems like they actually spent time on those quests because of subject matter, and figured Radiant Story would handle the nice guy stuff, doesn't it?
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Sherry Speakman
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:55 pm

I thought my Disclaimer on the first page was enough that almost everyone regarded Skyrim as an action Rpg, or an action game with PRPG elements, and yet STILL there are arguments over whether or not it is, like really. no point was being made, and a lot of good potential was wasted trying to defend personal views to others who don't give a hoot. at least try to state WHY its a -GOOD- RPG, oh wait, no one did. Confirms that it svcks as an RPG no?
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JAY
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:45 pm

Dale B

With all due respect and affect to Arena and Daggerfall (great products for their times) but i sincerely think that even the developers would prefers suicide to the possibility of being forced to play those games now,every day and for months like we can do easily with Skyrim :biggrin:

Apart from joke you've said the magical word: for their times. Priorities changes in this industry.

I give you an example :
an "ancient" book can be entertaining and valid even today, at the same level or even more sometimes.
But how many people today read a real book (you know,those of paper :biggrin: ) in real life -if not forced by school/job ? :wink: how many prefer it at a good videogame/movie/entertainment product for masses ?

An electronic product like a videogame etc. for many valid reasons (unfortunately for someone) is subject to become obsolete as time goes on
so these comparisons sounds meaningless to me - other than pretentious and personal,sorry if i have to say.

I bet that even Bethesda developers will change almost everything (at least in the graphics aspect) of those past games to "adapt them" at today "standards" -but they prefer (understandably) to look at the future,conscious that even Skyrim its not up at today achievable standards for various market reasons.
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Craig Martin
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:56 pm

Threat and world changing events have never been in a TES game. It was largely forgiven until Oblivion however, as the main quests of previous games never tried to do it anyway (Dagoth Ur is explicitly stated as no where near ready to take over for example, and Numidium hasn't been found in DF).

Also, if anything, Dragons have more impact on the world than the Daedra ever did. In an annoying way. They actually kill characters, the Daedra never bothered to go 10 feet from their gates.
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Reanan-Marie Olsen
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:15 pm

I would like to point out that just because time changes dosent make something irrevelant. Its the absence of it and the masses being used to its absence that makes irrevelent. Technology and science evolve from this. How many great technology advancements or ideas are well received todaythat had actually been used centuries before but was forgotten because the masses moved on.
Its my opionion that the stuff they are taking out does not necessaryly make it a better product or irrevelent and ill give two examples.
One look at csll phones. They still do what phones did wayy back when they were first invented but they keep the core features and improved on it. Yes u can still call, receive calls, and even here peoples voices but now u can do all of that outside a stationary spot, access internet, play games and so much more.
Now lets look at another example when u take the core outta of it and ill go with cooking. Without boring people with details, compare microwavable food to an old fashion homecooked meal. With microwavable u take out the process of fixing the food ur self, creating and customizing the food, where as inexchange for shorter cooking time and a bypass of creating it urself. The end result is that taking out the core process and learning how to create ur food, u get a subpar meal to which if u took time to learn u could great a superb feast.

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Killah Bee
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:31 am

I would compare skyrim to the microwaveable food. Yes its yummy, but it dosent taste as good as a homecooked meal or as satisfying to make. Does it get the job done, yes but just because it can look better and more easily understood to cook dosent make it a better meal
And yes I consider skyrim a rpg and a fun one, its just not as satisfying or have the personal gratification that im used to getting.
And yea its my opionion and doesnt make it right. Im just here in hopes that things get better.
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Ria dell
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:18 pm

I thought my Disclaimer on the first page was enough that almost everyone regarded Skyrim as an action Rpg, or an action game with PRPG elements, and yet STILL there are arguments over whether or not it is, like really. no point was being made, and a lot of good potential was wasted trying to defend personal views to others who don't give a hoot. at least try to state WHY its a -GOOD- RPG, oh wait, no one did. Confirms that it svcks as an RPG no?
No, it might confirm something about reading comprehension, but not about Skyrim.

I don't remember if it was in this thread or in one of the previous two, but as I recall you asked folk to explain why Skyrim is a good RPG by their own definition, and to say how it differs from Call of Duty. I was looking forward to the answers too. I might throw in my two cents later if I'm not feeling too lazy.
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A Dardzz
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:45 am

^ ^

Great, now I feel like eating Skyrim.. :l
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Quick Draw
 
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Post » Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:38 am

Yes that was the question I asked Since thread 1, I made it clear I really don't give whether people feel if its an RPG or not, I even made a point of it by Drawing MW3 into it and comparing them, but of course that was wasted effort since all I got back was how it WAS an RPG and how COD/MW3 wasn't and from the looks of it, was because the "industry" deemed it so. and the last few threads as stated by another forumer did result in nothing more than Circle jerking.

So Run down

What makes Skyrim a Good RPG? - no answer

If RPG's don't need stats, and MW3 has similar RPG elements like Skyrim, why is it a problem to compare them? - "Because MW3 isn't an RPG"

ok What deems an RPG? - "Character Developement"

but MW3 has char developement, hell alot of games have Character Development, I'd go so far as to say Skyrim pales in comparison to character development with those games because no matter what you -do-, the only thing that changes is the Order you d things and how you fight, otherwise there are no choices or divergent consequences in Skyrim - "They Aren't RPGs"

Why? - "You think MW3 is an RPG? I'm done"

What?? -
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Astargoth Rockin' Design
 
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Post » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:38 pm

^ ^

Great, now I feel like eating Skyrim.. :l

Tastes like sweetroll with butter instead of creme.
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Princess Johnson
 
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