Illusion, conjuration, destruction, restoration, and Oblivion is the most recent so it is considered lore. Besides it makes more sense your inner spirit regenerates than a sword. Magic>Guns...If it were Enclave, they'd be screwed but CL would lose.

And Falcon, that's unlikely, they have bows. IT'll kill you just as easily.

A sturdy knight era shield can stop a point blank shotgun shell from a good ol' 12 gauge saw it on TV, it can be mangled by the ordeal but still...
. :gun: :deal:

Yes. The Imperial Legion has bows, which are require more skill to use and have shorter range. Not to mention that not all Imperial soldiers carry them. Caesar's soldiers could easily sit at a standoff range of 150 meters and tear Imperial soldiers to pieces.



Yes, it could stop a shotgun shell sure, but it wouldn't stop a high-powered rifle round or even a 9mm round at a distance. Also, the shield you're describing is incredibly heavy to carry around so by equipping your soldiers with one, you're further limiting his/her mobility. There's the volume of fire that even a pump-action shotgun that you'd need to contend with as well. At point blank range, like you described in the scenario you presented, a basically trained soldier could fire off his shot, mangling the shield and making it useless. Then in the period of less than two seconds, rack another shell into the chamber and cut through the Imperial soldier's armor with a point-blank shotgun blast like a hot knife through butter.

Such archaic armor would not stand a chance against nine hot pieces of lead traveling at 1300 feet per second (the average muzzle velocity of a 12 gauge shotgun blast) or a 5.56mm round traveling at 3000 feet per second.

CL. Guns > Swords.

so this is how i would i think it would go. The legion arrives. they have around 50 no [censored] legionaries and they are prepared for battle. The IL hires 10 nightblades with the ability to use around 50% chameleon. Legion marches toward the imp city and suddenly several of them fall down from arrows. They halt and form a defensive position. there is no cover around so the archers should be seen. all of the sudden more legionaries fall from arrows and the Legate's throat is slit. They Legionaries are confused and rout. the nighblades go back to get thier septims.
Edit: if your thinking strictly IL, then replace Nighblade mercs with battlemages.

In the Fallout universe there's no doubt plate armor would be fairly effective against bullets. If plastic football shoulder-pads can make even a half decent armor, then well made plate would be pretty effective.

I'd say good plate armor in Fallout would provide almost as good protection as Fallout's metal armor (FO's metal armor is no doubt thicker), but would be lighter.

CL isn't as outnumbered as you might think. the Imperial Legion is a much smaller percentage of the Imperial population than Caesar's Legion is.

And battlemages aren't anywhere near as powerful as people seem to think, their spells are crap compared to the champion of Cyrodil's spells.

Actually plastic can be extremely effective as bullet resistant armor. That's basically what a nylon fiber vest is made of.

I'm confused anyway. Are we arguing this based on real-world information regarding weaponry and armor or making it up as we go along? The Imperial Legion's armor is effective in their universe much like it realistically would be against primitive weaponry like swords and arrows. Caesar's Legion armor is effective in their universe against more modern weaponry (bullets and explosives) not to mention bladed weapons thanks to the combination of the metal plate armor they use with what I'm assuming is bullet resistant materials underneath.

Maybe I'm just over thinking this. Bethesda and Obsidian could easily make it so one faction or the other could wipe the floor with their opponent so trying to argue that one has the advantage over the other is as fruitless as arguing whether or not a Deathclaw is more powerful than a Daedroth.

Imperial Legion, hands down. At least, if my Champion of Cyrodiil is at the front of the army.

"[censored] RUN, IT'S THE COURIER BUT WITH MAGIC AND GOLD ARMOR FOR SOME REASON! RUUUUUUN! SCREW LANIUS, JUST KEEP MOVING BACKWAAAAAARDS!"

Otherwise, a few conditions in favor of the IL would render them victorious.

If they had equal conditions, IL's magic would probably still win. Chameleon spells and control humanoid! It's like a mesmetron but without asplodey heads. Although in this case asplodey heads would probably be a good thing.

Deathclaw! Easily Deathclaw. Now, a Deathclaw vs a Xivilai or a Goblin Warlord would be a more even fight, but even then my money'd be on the 'claw.

(I like fruitless arguments, sorry.)

That makes sense. I'm more or less done with the original discussion however. What with people arguing that archaic plate armor can stop bullets. (I do not recommend testing this. You will most certainly die.)

i would love to see enclave vs dremora.

Because all plastics are created equal. One may as well compare common glass with the volcanic version used for TES's top-end Light Armor. As for the incredible penetrating power of bullets in the real world you should check out the Myth Buster episode where a car door and a couple of phone books was enough to stop handgun ammunition. Legion sniper rifles may be able to break through Iron or Steel if it isn't thick enough but remember that the Imperial Legion not only uses materials that aren't a part of the real world but is also magically fortified, something that would be impossible to measure in real-world terms as its effects are only measured in statistics instead of something as complicated as physics.

Furthermore if one were to make comparisons with Fallout armor then even Iron/Steel would serve adequately considering that many of the armors below Combat Armor are made from far less durable materials or, in the case of Metal Armor, much the same. The Imperial foot soldier would be about as well equipped as one of Ceasar's Centurions even without considering fantastic materials or magic.

Brilliant! It makes sense now.

Caesar's Legion Soldier: Why can't our bullets go through their armor?!

Caesar's Legion Lieutenant: It's magic! That's why!

It just goes to show you, if you want to make something work, just use magic. Forget an understanding of physics!

I didn't say it will stop bullets in real life, I said it probably would in fallout.

If http://i.walmartimages.com/i/p/00/08/33/21/85/0008332185613_300X300.jpg (just in case you didn't recognize what http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/3/30014/1400397-legion_super.jpg is) can be somewhat effective at stopping bullets in Fallout, there's no doubt that well made plate armor would be.

Legion Battlemages would just summon mehrunes dagon or molag bal to stomp on Caesar.

Magic is just too powerful...And Legion has very few guns. It'd mainly be sword vs. sword. Got to say, platemail>football pads and skirts.

My point was more about how ludicrous it is to attempt figuring out whether an X caliber bullet could penetrate +3 Full Plate. It doesn't make sense from a real world standpoint where certain properties that can't be summed up in an abstract value result in the bullet being stopped or not.

It's easy. They put it into Fallout. It's called damage threshold. No matter though.

Arrows & Magic > Guns
Imperial Legion also have better swords and armour, plus I like them better.
Oh, and they have horses.

It depends whos going on offensive and whos on defense.

If CL has to invade a Imperial castle....then the Imperial's will own.

If the Imperials have to march up to "The Fort". CL snipers and guerrillas will decimate the Imperials before they arrive.

Zimbabwe will own the US, I actually live in Africa(South Africa) and I've seen what the do to people. I've seen what they do to people with guns, they stand no chance. They come in hordes which will dominate the US army. Its like a Zombie Apocalypse except with Africans, no one will survive. They burn everything that tries even looks at them wrong!

Assuming those snipers don't get hit by fireballs and die horrible horrible deaths from being burned alive, or the Imperial Legion doesn't simply overwhelm them with their vastly superior numbers, or send in an invisible mage to make one of the snipers go crazy and attack people at random. Assuming the Imperials don't continually send weak summons until the legion runs out of ammo.
Or strong summons which are immune to non-magical weapons.

Let alone the fact the Imperial Legion would vastly outnumber the as they basically are ancient Rome in size.

Here is the hugest problem with the argument you Caesar supporters have.

Caesar's Legion is able to hold its own against the NCR,
Relying on low-tech, numbers, physical fitness and discipline a lot of there guys don't even use guns but simple swords and other low-powered melee weapons. the NCR has a lot more technology and guns yet they can't break the stalemate against the legion. Saying the imperial legion can't over come the gun disadvantage when Caesar's legion has done it for the past decade is complete and utter bull. By your logic the NCR should have crushed Caesar for good at the first battle of hoover dam.

Caesar's one solitary advantage is a technological edge, but that didn't ensure NCR victory did it?

In the end Caesar wouldn't want to fight the Imperial Legion he'd want to join them as their basically everything he admires about ancient rome[plus they have magic]

Im pretty sure battlemages aren't that powerful, hell im pretty the mages guild couldn't do that. Also im pretty sure it would be against most their laws to summon a daedric god.

And why would a daedric god even help the Imperials as seen the serve under emperors which fight to trap in their realm of oblivion.

Even when the IL uses magic just as scarcely as the wannabe romans use guns, Caesar's horde wouldn't stand a chance against a true army that is trained to actually use superior roman tactics. CL uses terror as a weapon, but their terror is in vain against an army that is used to fight snooty magelords, canibalistic tree-huggers and necromantic demon worshippers. Also, the IL can resort to troops that are actually born to live and fight in a desert, not just sturdy humans that barely manage to survive.

With magic it can not even be a question who will win, only how long it will take, and what means they deem to be reasonable. A mage can act as highly mobile artillery, he can act as reconnaissance, and as assassin, but he can also raise your own dead to fight against you, and you can be lucky when you face just a zombie and not some atrocity patched up out of several corpses. And that's just one mage - where the IL comes from, every single sapient being is magically talented.