Oh, OK, I thought you put the wrong quote up there, or something.

I'm saying I do like the new character-build options in Skyrim (Perks, M/H/S, Condensed skills, Fast-travel, random quests, global level-scaling, M/H/S regeneration rates, Lost Valley Redoubt) compared to the options in the past (Multi-Attribute Dependency, Multi-Skill dependency, inflexible starting bonuses, Q-key dependency, static world, rest-requirements, Mushroom Trees).


Epic Failure in Language Arts! I remember doing a silly Mad-Libs-type exercise back in 3rd grade to demonstrate that synonyms do not have identical meanings, by butchering Aesop's Fables.

Also, classic fallacy of Equivocation.

Half of what you like isnt even mutually exclusive to how things worked in previous games. We could have had perks, condensed skills, fast travel, random quests, global level scaling, Lost Valley Redoubt, while still having the things, mechanics, features, and variables that are missing from Skyrim, but are present in every other ES.

And we don't even want them back 1:1. We want them, wait for it, actually improved. OH NO!!!! "Whiners" have found change they can believe in.

I actually kind of wonder how much of this will make it to developer's eyes.

They are allowing this thread to go on, beside the fact that when I checked the forums days ago, we were on it's first iteration and that is it... yet now, somewhere about 20 pages later, the same points are being brought up over and over again. This says either they don't want to shut this thread down in fear of pissing off the fan base, someone is trying to make a point, we are all making good points, or the moderators are on strike.

Hopefully they will read this and see that many people, even the ardent supporters are against some of the changes that have been brought forward for Skyrim (By this I mean there are a number of forum elites who are anti-skyrim... which isn't too weird for long running series, but it is strange how many are speaking out this time).

It was a mistake to remove spellcasting, it was a mistake to remove depth from the character building mechanics, it was a mistake to remove mark and recall.

Levitation people really need to let that issue die: We have heard a reason, a good reason, repeatedly, for why it was removed. They now isolate cities into their own areas. End of arguement. If they bring cities back to the map, then maybe we wont need it anymore.

Also, the people who say that the whole company of Bethesda has been steadily crawling downhill since Daggerfall... No. Morrowind was good. Oblivion was bad. Fallout 3 was brilliant. Fallout New Vegas was... okay, but a shameless ripoff of Fallout 3, set deeper in the middle of nowhere. Skyrim is good. Fallout 3 had a balanced level design, perks, character customization....all of Oblivion took place in the same Meadow! The company makes mistakes and has success.

That said: Skyrim isn't the greatest game ever made. That would be Kriby's Dreamland. There is room for improvement, and while people may think it's the best in the series, you can't say: "Whelp, best ever, your going to never beat this."

Oh, and Sales figures do not equal quality. Saying: "Well everyone likes it, it has to be good" doesn't make sense. A lot of people like acupuncture, herbal remedies, and magnet therapy... that doesn't mean those are some of the most effective cures available in medicine.



Of course I don't know why I'm bothering... I'm too moderate for this arguement, the people who are getting the most out of this are the extremists, because the shoutiest person in the room is the one who makes their points to the largest audience.

Each time they are developing a new game I hope that they keep the things that work and people love, and build on those things with new things to progress the series. Each time they add a few steps forward (one of which is always graphics) and more than a few backwards. It seems to me the new direction is reverse. Don't get me wrong, the graphics are gorgeous, but I would trade them in a minute for npcs that have more personality than a Barbie doll.

@Seti18
If satirizing and implying stupidity on the part of those who don't mind the streamlining of some features in the game isn't agreeing on the whole "Bethesda Defense Force" thing, I don't know what is. You went beyond agreeing with chunkyman and Greed's "Bethbots" comments, you're impersonating what you imagine a "Bethbot" would say.

Major problem doesn't even include all of the gutting. It's the shamefully short questlines.

First of all, where did I declare the various problems to be "gamebreakers"? I didn't? So you're intentionally lying about what I'm saying to make yourself feel better? Right. Quite a polite thing to do, isn't it? The thing is, some clown talked about how fantastic everything was and how it was realistic and whatnot. I responded with what is a genuine oddity, namely that fire melts dragons, humans, and draugr, it ignites oil pits, but it does nothing to snow or chests? That's it, That's as far as my comment about non-melting snow went.

It would seem to me that my comment made your butt hurt, presumably because you think something is perfect while I can clearly see flaws in it, and so you apparently resort to flat out misrepresenting what I said. That speaks volumes about you as a person, I suppose, but that's really your problem and not mine.

You ask how many other games give us the chance to walk up onto mountain tops? Well, the first one that springs to mind is Gothic 2. It was released back in 2003, some eight years ago. Wasn't quite as open-ended as TES but it was pretty close. Reason I'm saying G2 rather than Morrowind is because the latter gave you levitation, which makes it easy to climb any mountain, while G2 did not. Even so, there was a fair bit of "climbing" to be done. Some of it was engine-exploiting (couldn't fall while sneaking, for instance) and some of it was taking advantage of paths that were just exactly not too steep to climb. It wasn't like Skyrim's zig-zaggy climbing, though. One wrong move and you might well plummet.

FO3 wasn't rich on mountains but it had it's elevated areas and I don't recall the physics in that game to be totally bonkers. By the way, who do you think made FO3? You bet. Since you haven't played RPGs before, how about Just Cause 2? I never tried JC1, but in 2 there certainly are a lot of peaks to get onto. How about the Delta Force series of games? I only ever played the living hell out of DF1, but in that game you could climb onto quite a few mountains if you wanted to. Though granted, it used low res voxel rendering so it wasn't exactly scenic to get onto a mountain. Nothing was, though the view distance was great.

You were saying? Oh, that's true, it's the first game you've ever seen which does allow you to stand on a mountain top and therefore you think that's special and something we all should be awestruck by. The thing is, I've been standing on mountains in other games. Older games. Much older games, even. Consequently it isn't special to me and consequently I expect to either climb up mountains the proper way, with careful crawls and well-timed jumps, or walk up mountains by following a designed path. I do *not* expect to climb mountains by running backwards in a zig-zag pattern while bunny-hopping. As it happens, I expect doing so to kill me rather quickly. Similarly, I don't expect horses to practically climb walls. I do expect a flashy eye candy AAA title from 2011 to have just remotely decent physics, however.

I dont need a perfect game and I don't need a perfectly simulated world, but I would like a world that is as coherent as resources allow. Everything doesn't have to be perfect, as long as the game doesn't take place in bizarro world. By the way, I'd be quite happy if you'd refrain from comparing me with some deadbeat alcoholic, solely because I hold a talented group of game developers to a higher standard than you do. Is that okay with you?

It might imply a sense of humor?

I don't know which post your talking about though

No, not really. It was just a halfhearted joke with no implications behind it. If I criticize, I do so openly and directly or at least do not deny it when something I've publicly put out is revealed for what it is, but all it was was some joking... picking on developer decision reasoning, really.

Hes talking about Seti and me going back and forth with, pretty much nonsensical, sarcastic...spam for lack of a better word.

The quote by Seti above my post.

Doh,



That whole conversation was hilarious

I think that the only real reason people think that the games are getting dumbed down is because hardly anyone on this forum wants the ES to change, I mean just search any topic that has multiplayer or gun in the word

Are you honestly saying the opposition to MP or guns is unfounded despite countless founded well-reasoned arguments against it?

Comparing adding multiplayer/guns to gutting cornerstones of the series? You kidding me?

Honestly, these threads are dumb. All they do is fuel hate towards the crowd that either A) Hates the game. Or B.) Likes the game. Both bicker and forth "CLAIMING" that their box of text is gospel. But in the end, it's just opinion vs opinion...and you guys attack each other like an opinion is wrong or something.

Why can't people except the fact, weather or not the game has changed, that people like it. Yes people like change. That doesn't make them sheep...that just makes them open minded. I understand why people are upset that the game has taken some turns through-out the series; but that's on Bethesda. Why atttack the people enjoy the changes is beyond me.

yes the well founded arguments being
NO
NEVER
GTFO

So you haven't read the threads properly.

If you read the entirety of those threads there is plenty of convincing arguments, it's just that its a topic that has been spammed so much (often trolled) that most people don't want waste time giving a convincing argument, take a look at the official thread.


Most people have been talking about Bethesda not fans of Skyrim

I know it's gone and that it's not coming back. It was a pain to design a game world where players could fly around, in part because encounters could be bypassed and in part because it forced them to actually put things at those impossible-to-reach places. The resources spent dealing with those pains could possibly be put to better use. Unfortunately I'm getting the distinct feeling that this "better use" is in further improving the graphics and that isn't a good trade-off.

well that is what I am saying most of the forum is opposed to changes and back it up with no reason, however there are some convincing arguments, but I have never really heard one for guns even though they are supported by lore most people think bethesda will screw something up if any new element is added

I figured I'd post this for reference and information:

The OP has so far stated the following:

1.Less armor pieces, gutted attributes, cut spellmaking, snipped the arena, trashed first person horse riding, cities are getting smaller, questlines are getting shorter, the coding in general is still embarrassing, skills continue to dwindle, and the list sadly goes on...

This series future is very questionable at this rate. It'll be nothing more then an action game if this continues. Skyrim is as shallow a RPG as you can get. Go back to the drawing board Bethesda. Save this once cherished franchise.

On the bright side, we have Health, Magicka, and Stamina to define our characters!

2. People agree it's the best because it won GotY? Skyrim's award is more meaningful then Morrowind's and Oblivion's?

3.There's nothing wrong with action games. I love them. Look at the things that have been gutted though. This is not the RPG it used to be and it never will be again at this rate.

4.I'm not missing out on anything. I've clocked in 135 hours thus far. I've played every game in this series. Skyrim is a joke compared to Daggerfall.

5.They're selling out at an alarming rate.

6.Elaborate on what's been lost? Did you miss the OP? Yikes.

7.Completely agree Dragonbone. Gameplay is more important. I facepalmed when he suggested otherwise.

8.They sold out to the casuals. The realists are long gone. Where's Xanarc The Conqueror? Gpstr? Dragonborn1? They've all disappeared.

9.Read the OP. Many things gone and gutted. The crappy hotkeys are just a blip on the radar.

10. The questlines are way too short. My stats menu lists the Companions finished in 7 quests. You kidding me?

11.Cities ARE smaller. Riften is a joke.

12. There isn't more armor PIECES. More TYPES then Oblivion yes. Not more PIECES though. Skyrim has LESS pieces AND types then Morrowind.

13.Spellmaking and longer questlines are "inessential"? Bigger cities?

14.It's a shell of its former self.

15. you don't want to discuss this serious issue and only post smarmy remarks then don't bother.

16.You disagree that questlines aren't getting shorter? My stats menu lists the Companions finished in 7 quests. Not good.

17.This series is a shell of its former self.

18.They've removed the "magic" of this series.

19.One area doesn't make up for all of the gutting.

20.They sold out to the casuals at an alarming rate.

21.The fact that this topic has 2 threads and SEVENTEEN pages of total discussion goes to show there are plenty of people upset with this series spiraling out of control.

22.How is this in any way "real roleplaying" now?nowhere??

23.I'll wager you didn't start the series before Oblivion or even Morrowind? The fact that there are people who have been with this series from the very BEGINNING means that I'm going to voice my opinion when I want. I will NOT let people who jumped on boars midway, or even worse, with/after Oblivion, to respond to legit concerns with smarm and snarl.

24.@Echonite Try reading through the first thread and this one. Plenty of people agree. Just read some of the responses on this very page.

25.Nr3?

26.How can it "not be headed in a good direction" but continue to be great? Makes no sense.

27.Probably better that way to be honest.

28.Why will it get locked? You said that about the last 2 and they filled up and reached post limit. There's obvious discussion to be had here.

29.Exactly Ebony Bow.

30.Have the casuals even played Daggerfall?

31.Then you haven't played Daggerfall.

32.Major problem doesn't even include all of the gutting. It's the shamefully short questlines.

33. Comparing adding multiplayer/guns to gutting cornerstones of the series? You kidding me?


Please do continue at your leisure.

Because guns are so effective as weaponry that it would have to hijack the game into a steampunk theme, you couldn't just add themw ithout affecting the combat in the whole game

I need a troll/flame filter....can any of you modders make me one?

Thanks!

Not what I read in these "official" three threads. Not to mention the countless theads made daily on these boards about how horrible this game is. Anybody who says "I enjoy the game" soon gets a verbal lashing from the Skyrim haters. It's almost like clockwork. From there the bickering begins. Your either a sheep or don't know what a tru e RPG is or some stupid statement like that. Then the "sheep" relaliates.