I reference one of my favorite RPGs of all time, TES II: Daggerfall. There was never a stat sheet number for reputation, yet it has one of the, arguably, greatest reputation systems of all time. It's so complex that social classes (commoners, nobility, underworld, etc.), branches within those social classes (varying royal courts, for example), factions (various knight factions, religious factions, Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Thieves Guild, etc,), and even various regions (particularly the law) all had their own influential dispositions that intermingled and crossed to form a complex web called Daggerfall's reputation system... and you never saw a lick of it on any stat sheet. It was a gradually shifting, dynamic system that worked so gradually that you wouldn't immediately notice it, but it would influence everything with every faction. Nobles may grow to love you if you prove a loyal servant and trust with you more and more extensive tasks, for example. Please one group a bit and you run the risk of ticking another off a bit. Within the main quest alone, there are eight major groups with their own interests and disposition to you that can be influenced. In Daggerfall, one can actually choose who they side with in the main quest. It is a very natural progression, the under-workings of which one might not even realize if they did not look up information on the technical side of Daggerfall, although I may simply be telling you something you already know in which case I apologize (Have you played Daggerfall?). Simply add to that some Morrowind/Oblivion style of acknowledgement for specific accomplishments and we would have an, in my opinion, nearly flawless reputation system.

It's too bad the game was so rushed, underfunded, understaffed, unfinished, and buggy that it, while having the ambition and dream behind it, failed to come together properly. I hope DaggerXL manages to correct that.

MAking a game more neat and simple does not mean it is dumbed down. I enjoy this game 100 times more than oblivion, and 1000 times more than morrowind .

Hence the reason people get upset when the new TES game "dumbs down" the series, if MW WAS so awesome they would just go play it.


Simple used to mean dumb/stupid

And making a game that appeals to you doesn't mean it appeals to everyone, I wish Bethesda would start a new franchise to market as the streamlined no numbers series that pays the bills *sigh*

Heh. Instead, they've dragged both Fallout and TES into a pit.

I suppose that why there's all those morrowind and daggerfall restoration projects.

[quote name='JagarTharn12' timestamp='1324181330' post='19824461']
Hence the reason people get upset when the new TES game "dumbs down" the series, if MW WAS so awesome they would just go play it.



Or Bethesda would've carried on Morrowind's systems into Oblivion's then Skyrim's, but then Elder Scrolls would be called the Dynasty Warriors of RPGs. Just because something worked in one game for one generation in one system, doesn't mean it's going to be received well by everyone. Regardless, I'm still hoping for an updated version of Morrowind.

No, new cars now adays are simple to use versus the cars from the early 1900s, where you would pull the wrong lever and your car would catch fire. Just because something has become more simple to use versus too complicated and frustrating, does not make it dumbed down. Crappy game mechanics and ridiculous stat sheets do not make a game better. In this game you have t make a charater and play the role, in previous games you could be a god and master everything, and also be effective in everything, not exactly fitting a role, now is it?

In your opinion, almost all my friends online enjoy this game more than oblivion, and morrowind, but apparently their opinions are invalid because the nostalgia [censored] cant get over the old games.

Nostalgia has nothing to do with it. I was playing both Morrowind and Daggerfall a few days ago.

I'm not so sure, MW created enough waves to forge it's own following without appealing to the main market. Just look at RTS games, none of them have really revolutionised the basic genre.

*sigh*, yes, morrowind does have crappy game mechanics, I KNOW, I'm not defending that.

And cars aren't really simpler to use, back in the 1930s you didn't have to worry about cruise control, premium fuel, diesel, windscreen wipers, indicators etc.

But aside from that, Morrowind had a unique world and unique creatures, mods show that Bethesda could have easily revamped the graphics, modified the gameplay and made new textures and the game would have been fun to play.
Instead they made a game that was a lot of fun to play and easier to play, but was blander and less memorable.
And there are more ways to prevent godhood than removing attributes and using a perk system (Fallout 3 for example).

And why is you and your friends opinions right?

And so can everyone else if they want to, but does that mean they have to make skyrim exactly like those games, no. And if they made the game the same 10 years in a row, most people would be put off by that. Now its just a bunch of TES [censored] on here that are so in love with the older games, that they cant stand the fact that the game took a new direction.

There is an obvious correlation between join date and relative opinion on this subject.

Anyway, good game design should transcend graphical capacity and seasonal popularity; only time will tell if was truly great;

or in skyrim's case lets see just how much gets *fixed* once the CK comes about
my bet, a whole freakin' lot.

Nobody has ever said they wanted Skyrim to be exactly like Morrowind, at least nobody that's ever mattered. Hell, we don't even want title exclusive stuff from Morrowind in Skyrim. We want the missing mechanics, variables, and depth. Even more so with Daggerfall.

A new direction =/= completely revamping the game

Skyrim is not a sequel to Morrowind, it is a remake.
Like Dragon Age to Baldurs Gate, I have no problem with that, but they didn't need to use the TES moniker, they could have come up with a new concept rather than flogging the TES name to sell the game.

1900's i said, not 1930's. Anyhow, people still whined about fallout 3's machanics because they were more simple than fallout 2's, people will always whine, if they dont get the same game over and over, but then you will also get people what whine about the game being the same if that happens, so they cant please anyone, but more people will be pleased if the game is new, rather than re-hashing the older games.

And to Crate. Yeah, the CK will cause skyrim to become a butchered version, hoo rah, it wont be skyrim anymore, itll be oblivion 2.0. And to the people that have a life, they will play the real skyrim. Oh no, I played agame and enjoyed what it was, rather than whining on the forums for the last 10 years. Silly nerds.

okay I misunderstood. That reputation system actually sounds really cool.
Trust me folks, I love me some stats. That's why I Iove baseball, it's all about the numbers. (insert COD dumb jock insult here ya pedantic basemant dwellers! --- just kidding
anyway, my roommate used to play Oblivion late into the night on a big ole' HDTV. It looked fun to wander around, but for whatever reason I detected a subtle corniness in the people and the environments.
Call me a simpleton, but for a relatively visual guy like me, the graphic overhaul in Skyrim makes ALL the difference. I watched one gameplay video on youtube and Skyrim has consumed my life ever since.
where am I going with this... oh, I remember: Turn off all the lights in the house. Turn on Skyrim. Crank up the volume. Sit as close as you can without your eyes bleeding. Then, smoke a bowl. You will be literally transported into the world of Skyrim. The gates of happiness and appreciation will open, Skyrim's genius will be revealed before your squinty red eyes, and you will no longer be distraught over the Imperial Bow of Flames that doesn't melt snow.

Yeah just because i joined this year, it means im a noob who hasant played any other elder scroll game...

I suppose it would be presumptuous of me to assume you own the console version of skyrim ?


I'm not directing that to anyone specifically, so sorry you feel so offended

No, he was just observing that people who have recently joined enjoyed Skyrim whereas people who joined earlier enjoyed previous games more,.

That can be said for every genere out there. The entire gaming industry has been a massive dearth of genuine innovation, but something that just so happened to work then doesn't mean it's going to work now. Partly the reason why Morrowind is so iconic is because its a poster child of not just RPGs, but 3-D gaming in general because it was something new, even though it was mostly one massive tabletop game in a interactive form, with all its pluses and minuses.

I'd like some more depth and RPG elements in Skyrim or future installments, don't get me wrong, but it's not that bad of a game. Compared to other modern RPGs or games with RPG elements pending your ideals, it's still pretty damn close.

Hell, Daggerfall reputation was so in depth that even the Gods and their servants/followers had reputation scales. A third of the skills cut from Daggerfall to Morrowind revolved directly around reputation, in the form of linguistics.

Oh if you meant that sorry Oh and i disagree about skyrim not being unique Its by far the most grey Elder scroll game i have ever played...

Skyrim is streets better than the competition, and it is extremely fun.

But I think that a game with Morrowinds stats with Skyrims combat would be much better.
The real reason that a game with Morrowinds formula wouldn't work now is because no game company stuck with it, they all jumped on the action adventure train as that happened to be more popular at the time.
But many genres haven't been changed, Turn based strategy, real time strategy, platformers and first person shooters for example. The difference between those and RPGs is that Action-adventure games shared a lot of superficial features with RPG's and were more popular.

Then you haven't played Daggerfall.

Yes, because real gamers play console, and people that want to replace their lives with 2 or 3 series play PC, Id rather spend my hard earned cash on a new console every 6 - 10 years than having to fork out thousands of dollars / euros / whatever every year to just be able to play the games I want. I bet if you went back 6 years to oblvion, people would be whining just as much as they are now, and then to the game before, same. People might as well make their own games, but ya know, they cant, so they whine about other peoples games. Sad.