Wow, where do you come up with this level of ignorance? The TES games are the RPG series for everybody to have a chance to play what and who they want where they want to be. This design element is incredibly obvious from Arena onward.

I'm a veteran of the series: First game was Arena. From what I've seen, all the TES games were about making it more accessible and "Be who you want to be"

ARENA had a rigid class system that you had to choose at the start, and limited growth within it

Daggerfall removed the rigid class system in favor of a skill-system that allowed you to define your character from the start, and further develop it as you want as you played. It also cast out for wide-appeal by making Vampires and Werewolves playable- always popular. It also added factions to allow you to further define your character within your archtypes: Is your sneak a Thief (Thieves Guild) or Assassin (Dark Brotherhood). Is your magic-user a Wizard (Mage's Guild) or a Priest(Temples). Is your warrior a Mercenary (Fighter's Guild) or honorable Champion of Justice (Knightly Order). Somewhere in between?

Morrowind made the game more accessible by paring down the skills from two sets of three and one set of six to two sets of five, removing the "Useless" skills, and balancing the skills between the archetypes to nine per Archetype. The number of factions were reduced as well, allowing you to define your character within them. Advantages and Disadvantages ended up bundled into Race and Birthsign packages.

Oblivion made the series more accessible by cutting out redundant skills, further cleaning up magic, and consolidating skills to Seven class skills (Also the number of skills within each archetype): Armor becomes a binary choice - Do you want mobility or greater protection? "Light" armor becomes the "Medium" between Unarmored(No protection, maximum mobility) and Heavy Armor. Weapons get condensed to two skills, but the weapon selections get expanded so that you can define your play-style within your skill: Faster, lighter-hitting warriors favored Axes or Short Swords, with Maces and Longswords being favored by heavy-hitters. The game's faction system is distilled to the three archetypes and Assassins, with numerous smaller factions re-introduced to allow yourself to expand further. Also, specialized questlines separate from the guilds are added in.

Skyrim does away with classes entirely, using a Perk system to finally break free of end-game "Master of None" syndrome, and favoring the "Health, Magicka, Stamina" trio to eliminate the need of out-of-character attribute enhancements. No more "Rush to 100 Endurance" for everyone, nor a need for Warriors to focus so heavily on Agility(For Stamina and Stagger Resistance), Willpower(For Magic Resistance and Stamina), and Speed (For mobility and reaction time) to remain competent in combat. The only problem here is that the Guilds stop serving the player: There's too much story in them (Because people were screaming for better story and writing for the factions) that they no longer serve to allowing you to define your character. At least Radiant Quests allow thieves, assassins, and warriors to constantly ply their trades.

You don't know anything about PCs.

You have to bring console bashing into a thread that had nothing to do with consoles.... sad

I agree, had Morrowind's system been more worked upon it would've become better. Although I don't think it's as flexible as Skyrim's, I loved the diversity it offered.

Whoa! Ouch!

All those genres have changed. Dramatically.

Doom and Call of Duty play NOTHING alike.
RTS has changed as well - Compare Dune II/Warcraft-style gameplay to Supreme Commander (I think). And for platformers... Super Mario Bros. and Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time don't play anything alike either.

I don't think anybody is defending the game as vehemently as those who are deriding it. There are no "Bethbots" or "Bethesda Defense League." You guys are making up a group of people that isn't real. You really want someone to like this game as much as you dislike it because that will somehow justify how absurd you're being about a game. Nobody feels that way. The game has its flaws and bugs and it has been simplified but can you honestly say you didn't get 60 dollars worth of entertainment out of killing dragons and exploring Skyrim? Was seeing all the new stuff really not worth missing out on some of the old?

Neither do Daggerfall and Morrowind, but they still use the same basic formula, Morrowind just takes advantage of the technology of the time.

Same as all of the games you listed (except maybe Prince of Persia)

Who are you replying to?
No-one has said anything about Beth-bots and your arguments have been addressed earlier in the thread

You sound angry.

I'm afraid your assumptions about PC's are.. not grounded in reality.

You're right about one thing, the releases years back came with a lot of complaints. Especially console players who had to wait for a patch for various buggy portions of the game.

SKYRIM= COD Swords N [censored]

Erandur, Seti18 and the topic in general.

Quote me where I said that once because I don't recall it.

And Skyrim uses the same basic formula as Daggerfall and Morrowind... more of the Daggerfall than Morrowind, though. (With the optional Radiant Quests, number of character-defining quests, and the Wartime politics)

Still the same archetypes, but with the skills and attributes being merged for the most part - and two attributes (Speed and Luck) cut entirely.

I suppose when you say "as much as you dislike it" you have a specifically amount of dislike in mind? I don't think people would say this is DA2 bad, but it may be equally stretching on your part to think any amount of dislike is equivalent to unbridled hatred.

There certainly a way the game is design such that if not for add-ons re-playability is severely limited.

I'd call merging attributes completely changing the genre

oh, and someone would like to speak to yyou about those bethbots that don't exsist dungeonsanddungeons http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1318621-the-bethesda-god/ (Kidding )

I use the words fan boys and blind defenders. Not the words you used. You also say that we want to change peoples opinions. We don't, at least I don't. I couldn't care less about what the people that are OK with less think. I only care what Bethesda thinks and does with the series and the thoughts and opinions of people that want more. That liked the series for the mechanics it had that are now gone. And these aren't title specific mechanics, nobody's complaining because the lack of Guar in Skyrim. How are game play and role plays have been diminished with the cutting.

Note: I said absolutely nothing labeling anyone in this thread, just to clear my name here, and I have no idea how anyone would gather that I've said such. It's insultingly pretentious. I don't say such thinga, I don't make any ad hominem attacks. I pick a side and I defend it, I do not attack people. I would have thought the difference between attacking a person and not making any mention of a person in clearly defending my point would be obvious and I don't take kindly to being accused of things I have not nor would ever do.

My fault. It was Chunkyman and Greed who said that. You just agreed.

No, I didn't. Please, quote me agreeing then. If you simply mean I quoted and replied to them, perhaps, but I did not comment, at any point, with any agreement on what people defending an opposing position are to be labeled.

And that's exactly what he's talking about. There are no "Blind Defenders" - everyone has reasons for liking the game as much as others have for disliking it.

The "defenders" will shout down complaints that are:
A: Actually Good things (You are complaining about a threat to features you like, we are complaining about a threat to features We like - which is the idea that Bethesda will value your opinion over ours.)

B: Not the game-breaking deal the detractors say it is (Bugs, redundant quest-lines alternatives, and Stuffed Journals)

C: A false premise. "Why does Skyrim have fewer monsters than Morrowind?" "Skyrim has 42, not counting re-skins (Someone counted 46, but 4 of those were just different types of Dragon). Morrowind had 36. And we don't have Skyrim DLC yet."

And the person posting about the Bethesda God actually mis-labeled the Random Number God. Like how the Imperials call Shor "Lorkhan".

I meant that as a joke, I thought it was just funny someone started a thread about the "Bethesda God" after someone said there was no-one who worshipped Bethesda or something similar

The hell if there isn't. A lot have gone after release, but there's still a few around.

What I want doesn't compromise anything you want, because you want less than us. Anything you could want, we already do want. Unless your saying you want things like auto health regen.

...

What does that have to do with what I said? Am I missing something?

I was providing an example of someone who was complaining about.... complaining with no real arguments, "a blind defender"

Main Entry: simple
Synonyms: dumb

Main Entry: synonym ?
Definition: equivalent

I won't say it's spiraling out of control, I think it's pretty obvious it's intentional, especially from what was said in this interview:

Gamasutra - What about accessibility -- making Skyrim a game that's inviting to people who might not play RPGs as much, and also the hardcoe people who have been playing The Elder Scrolls since the beginning?

Todd Howard - Honestly, it's not something that we think about a lot, in that we've found that we're getting a pretty big audience making a game that we want to make. We want to make it for whoever it is -- even if you've played Elder Scrolls before, you haven't played this one, so you don't understand what a skill does yet.

... We want to remove confusion, that's what I'd say. As opposed to making it more accessible, we'd like to remove confusion for anyone who's playing. What we're trying to do now is lead you into it more...

Is more proof really needed? Call it streamlined. Call it simple. Call it what you want. In the end, it's all a synonym for dumbed-down; to appeal to the masses. I'm sorry, I mean to make it more accessible.

Uldred