That is one of the problems I have with the Empire: It is not the same Empire, no matter how much some nords want it to be. This is the Mede Empire, not the Septim Empire.

Isn't that the same Jarl that was having plans drawn up so that she could run away at a moment's notice?

If you talk to Torygg in Sovngarde he tells you how he lost in fair combat against Ulfric. End of.

No, he didn't believe Torygg to be a fit leader of Skyrim. So he challenged him.

What? Ulfric has no reason to go to Solsthiem to try and get it back

Once again. Fair Combat. Ask Torygg, your argument is meaningless.

He has no need to try and take Solstheim

This.

Once again. He didn't have to accept. He could have been dethroned and lived.

Utter crap. Torygg lost in fair combat. He says it himself!

You believe wrong. Once again. Ask Torygg.

Nope, not at all.

Every time someone points out that Ulfric is not simply grabbing the throne for himself but waiting for the moot to vote, someone else points out that by the time he wins the war he's already stacked the deck to make the vote turn out in his favor... so the fact that he's following tradition by waiting for the moot means nothing, which proves that the orginal accusation regarding him being a power-hungry throne-grabber is still valid.

The implication is that "stacking the deck" is A Bad Thing that Ulfric did because he is A Bad Person and that it proves something about his character.

My point is that Tullius does EXACTLY THE SAME thing if he's in the winner's seat, which Imperial supporters seem to conveniently forget when they point to the same behavior as a mark against Ulfric.

Yep. That's part of the reason I'm for the Empire. They tend to have more competent (and likable) Jarls than the Stormcloaks.

It doesn't invalidate the point.

All politics is cunning and cunning maneuvers...even in so called Democracies. And people, Skyrim is not even remotely pretending to be anything but a feudal society the power centers of which are indisputably warlords. Accept the game as what it is and refrain from imposing 21 century sensibilities on it. They don't fit, won't fit, and you'll never be able to enjoy it for what it is.

Ulfric wants to rid Skyrim of the Thalmor and all subservience to foreign powers.

The Empire is in league with...colluding with...a power that wants to rid all of Tamriel of men--exterminate Stormcloak, Imperials, Nords, Redguards, Bretons and AFAIK, Kajiits(sp?) and Argonians.

That's "equality" Thalmor style.

I think people are unfair on him about the whole racism issue. He made half of his town into refuge for Dark Elves.

Ulfric admits to blocking the Moot during the civil war. If the Imperial controlled parts of Skyrim held the Moot without the other Jarls, it'd be declared a sham and the winner's claim would be invalidated instantly.

Also, as mentioned before, the Empire is putting in replacements because the Jarls in power were in open rebellion. These are territories taken before the Civil War ends so of course they aren't going to be allowed to stay in charge. But who knows? There's nothing to indicate that the Empire won't allow them to take back their positions as Jarls in a few years once everything cools down. If they're willing to reaffirm their loyalty to the Empire that is, meaning Skald is unlikely to ever have power again. Good riddance I say.

The case can be made that it was those who sold out to the Thalmor by agreeing to the WGC who are the traitors.

But even if we accept your de facto definition that anyone who disagrees with the empire and the roving bands of Thalmor thugs, are rebellious traitors...well George Washington and his band of merry men fit the bill, as well.

I can't, for the life of me, feature these words coming out of the mouth of Torygg or Tullius or Elisif but I can almost hear them coming from the man giving the "reasons we fight" speech--Ulfric:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Yeah. *cough*Siddgeir *cough*

(Ok, there are a few, what we in Sweden call "stolpskott" on the Stormcloak side as well.)

They were, but then they won. So they're patriots. Ulfric's rotting in the corner of the Palace of Kings in my game, so he's a traitor.

That's how it works. History's written by the winners.


I did say "tend," so I do recognize there are some bad apples, but even Siddgeir's competent enough to keep his predecessor's steward around, and let her handle all the business in the Hold. That's more than I can say of his uncle, who not only kicks his former steward out, but replaces her with what I assume is his maid and orders you to break into his former Housecarl's home because he's a "spy."

I'd rather have a lazy do nothing who knows who to keep around in charge than a man who sees the devil in every shadow.

As I understand it, if the Stormcloaks win, Elisif assumes the Jarl-dom of Solitude.

Another cunning plot evidently.

has he ever actually said anything racist towards dunmer/argonians?

Post limit.