You can pretty much guarantee you'll get the same comparison between Skyrim and Bethesdas next installment.

Hack and slash was invented on the PC not consoles. Please stop blaming the underdogs (consoles) for problems that were born and bred on the PC

Us console players (BTW I have a PC too) get scaled down leftovers. Not only do we get scaled down leftovers, we have to BEG to get them.

Torchlight II for example, not even coming to consoles No Diablo, Witcher 2 took begging...

Considering doing all the content in morrowind is 200+hours of gameplay, why is replayability a big issue? Most RPGs are 30 hours long now. The complaint that Morrowind isn't as fun 400hours in is a bit of "first world problems" Meme

The "console generation" is what again? Gaming consoles have been around since 1976.

PCs are *still* more popular. The "masses" you speak of are on PC/Mobile playing Angry Birds

You do know there's an edit button, right?

Nell, where did I say Skyrim was not an RPG? you get as much Char development in Skyrim as you do MW3/COD. Whats the issue here.

Everything you listed as Is nots in COD/MW3 are in fact what you say they aren't. in Skyrim theres no designation for your char beyond what -YOU- put on it. the game doesn't give a differences between one save and another. You may name one Bob, and one Billy but the game recognizes them all the same with aesthetic differences, and a line or two or racial dialog.

You go on about Choice and developement and thats exactly what you are afforded in MW3/COD, don't think I'm trolling by the way. Realize I'm making a point, you say there is more to RPG's than Fat lewt, ok what are those? since RPG's aren't defined by Stats etc etc.

and where was I ragging about Attributes, there you go again hinging yourself on an aspect far more than you claim I do



As stated prior, Skyrim does no different in designation of your character, YOU designate that difference, Unlocking goodies? um Perks? hello? and Skyrim is brimming with collecting lewt, whats your point?



That destiny thing is a story not exclusive to RPG's, try again. And a player on MW3/COD is different why? choosing their loadout, where they'll go on a map, how they'll take enemies down. by your words it seems Skyrim is an RPG because of its name and nothing else, all these facets you list down are reproducible in games across the spectrum but THEY aren't RPG's Skyrim is even though they Do as much if Not More in the aspects you're touting/ not to mention how laughable all those "choices" in perks and what few negligible (as in nothing happen differently) choices in the storyline

Exactly.

How about this one. In morrowind you can wear a robe OVER your armor. In Skyrim you can't. Progress?

I am also tired of the "Attributes are now in xyz, they're just not attributes anymore...."

Missing the point. We didn't want our attributes hidden away into an action games. We wanted what attributes do to be EXPANDED and offer even more customization.

STR used to do DMG, Carrying capacity. Now that is hidden away in perks. That's not what Morrowind fans wanted. We wanted STR to do more. What else could STR do? I'm sure people have a list of 100s of ideas, not going to spam this thread with "OMG RPG should do XYZ" ideas that are never going to happen.

But that's really the point. Those of us who enjoy traditional RPG things like stats/attributes want our stats to MATTER. And as gaming evolves, our hope was that stats would be used in more complex and interesting ways, and even interact with each other?

Imagine the possibilities of STR and SPeed and ENd and Agil affecting each other? Instead, that was all removed in favor of set perks or hidden away in bogus enchantments

This is a very important point we often overlook. You need end game perks to even have any sort of "class" or "attribute" specialization, and by then, you are already level 30.

No nostalgia. I played Morrowind and BG2 both in 2011. That was the first time I had EVER played BG2 and I rank it as a top 10 all time game, any genre. No nostalgia goggles or childhood memories.

There are not "just as many paths" as there ever were. False. In morrowind you could CREATE YOUR OWN MAGIC, you could ENCHANT ITEMS WITH SUMMONS! You could make a PURE ACROBAT THIEF. You could LEVITATE! you could BECOME A GOD! etc.. etc...

I don't know why you are saying which of the 4 greatest RPGs ever made is "more RPG" that is not what we are talking about.

Here is one reason
Oblivion had better quests
enough for me

exactly, annoying beyond reason when folks go on about things taken away are "still there" they aren't and what remains is lackluster, Magic, Weapon Types, Stats. its not rose tinted Goggles, its peeps with their eyes still glazed over.

I think I need to make a new topic stating my last post. Ive yet to see anyone agree or disagree with it.

Once we get past the Morrowind arguments that is what it comes down to. Writing. Most of the MW vs. Skyrim discussion centers around game mechanics. A valid discussion but IMHO not central. The primary thing that keeps Skyrim from being a good RPG is that the writing prevents the player from choosing a role. It is largely chosen for him via limited dialogue options and limited NPC reaction to player actions.

I would argue that the "essential tags" that you get in Skyrim but not Morrowind are even more detrimental to roleplaying than the limited dialog options. The opening scene was well done and induces an emotional response. Yet, we are prevented by the "essential tags" from roleplaying someone who seeks revenge against the Imperial Legion for our treatment in the opening scene. If we want our revenge, we must swear alliegence to someone named Ulfric Stormcloak and fight for his cause. My character is not a Nord and really wants to stay out of the whole civil war thing and just do his own thing, but he can't because the only way to defeat the Imperials is to fight for Ulfric.

Sure, we can kill a few no name Imperial soldiers we meet randomly on the road, but you want to get that bastard Tullius and you have to join Ulfric's band. They should make them "semi-essential" so they cannot be killed by other NPCs but not immune to the PC's attacks.

If you seriously think that the character development in Skyrim is the equivalent of Call of Duty, then I cannot continue this debate with you.

The character development for Skyrim is very poor, Oblivion is much better in that department.

Its unfortunate you hook yourself on a fraction of the statements instead of the Broader Picture, I mean now you seem to be just avoiding the point all together.

let me clear your view.


Apparently to be an RPG you need Char Development, which happens in atleat 90% of all games regardless of Genre in one form or another. they don't need stats, numbers, weapon diversity etc etc. but in your sense, Char dev for an RPG to be an RPG

Skyrim's Char development Comes in the Form of Perks/Skills, no we're not talking about the story since if you played 2 Chars both did the Companions, THEY'D PLAY OUT EXACTLY THE SAME FULLSTOP. I didn't say anything about Morrowind

MW3/COD's Char development comes in the Form of Perks, and Hidden Skill bonuses (right? no Numbers? that's what you want right? its very simplistic)

Both are simple, straightforward, not much to change, diversity is negligible and Limited.

Why is it insulting to say Skyrim is as RPG as MW3?

and why didn't you answer my question (well wasn't a question but is now) You said COD isn't an RPG but Skyrim is, even though the Char development which you say is the hallmark for an RPG exists in both games.



Case and Point? Who the hell cares if its RPG or not going by the past games THE GENRE HAS NOT CHANGED The FORMULA of which Skyrim is made is reminiscent of Arena, the First TES and its subsequent progeny, So WHY is there less now then there was years ago? and why is that all of a sudden fine and superior?

Character development means being different at the end of the game than you started.

In Call of Duty, you start as a soldier, and end as a soldier. You get some unlocks as a bonus, to upgrade your weapons. But your character remains the same from point A to point B.

Skyrim is an RPG because you are not the same at point A from point B. You start off as a character that is relatively unskilled, and to progress, you do low challenge things to improve and gradually become stronger, whether that be better in combat, or better in talking to people. The progress of the character is determined by the player, not by the game, through choice in how to progress that character through various means such as skills, perks, attributes, factions, or "karma" points. My Skyrim character is different from your Skyrim character because of our choices. My Call of Duty "character" is the same as all others. Progression comes from game determined progression (ie beating a level, and moving on to the next level, and unlocking a weapon upgrade to proceed). Call of Duty is not an RPG because you are not making decisions in character. In Skyrim you are making choices in character, from what skills to train, to what guilds and factions to join, to what choices to make to accomplish goals, all the while progressing into something you were not to start the game as.

Attributes can be a very important tool towards accomplishing that goal, but as Skyrim proves, they are not the be all end all of achieving that. Attributes are but one way to accomplish that.

Skyrim is an RPG as it has all the basics of an RPG. However, the general consensus is that isn't a great one. In my honest opinion all they have to do for the next TES game is to improve the perk system, add more choices in dialogue and spellmaking.

Hexpane, you can speak for yourself, as a huge Morrowind fan I am very happy to see the elimination of Attributes.

If you want a stat riddled RPG, there are still tons out there for you.

I wasn't a fan of the attribute system considering how I tend to waste time trying to get those x2 bonuses.

No, it couldn't. I posted this somewhere else, but it's impossible to make a spell creation system with scripting, so it would be hard-coded, and I don't think they would ever release a DLC with hard-coded content, because it would basically split the game into two different variants that each have to be updated.

One giant problem with this:

I can play two different games, with two different races, but play the exact same class and have basically the exact same experience.

I should be having different experiences. An Orc Warrior should not feel like a High Elf Warrior. A High Elf Mage should not feel like an Imperial Mage.

...Erm... no, they did this with both Morrowind and Oblivion (I think). Morrowind's expansions definitely added hard code. And hey, Shivering Isles was much better received than Oblivion (to the point that I wouldn't go to a vanilla cyrodiil but I would a vanilla SI) so Skyrim might be the same, you never know.

i'll take it further:

my nord warrior shouldn't play exactly like my altmer mage. the only difference is one's approach to combat. that's it.

you must have those characteristics that truely create unique characters in a game.