Why certain races don't start out with more or less Health is beyond me.

Yet High Elves get a +50 Magicka on creation.

What?

Darkside Eric - Sounds like Morrowind and Oblivion to me. I guess TES just isn't an RPG period then...

Imseeingred - If you are having the same experience no matter what, then I don't know what to tell you, cuz there's plenty of content for all different gameplays (College for mage's, Companions for warriors, etc.) as well as each character just being fundamentally different.

I'm glad there are at least a few people with this way of looking at things. It's odd that I'm rather relaxed on this whole issue myself, considering I'm very fickle on many other subjects. Everytime this kind of thread appears it's like a broken record is being played on a loop.

let me clarify:

any character can do everything in the game.
any experience differences are achieved through.... ME AND MY MIND.

not through actual, functioning, in-game mechanics.

edit: this is why getting rid of attributes was a horrendous decision. attributes add huge amounts of depth and customization. my 2 nord warriors can have everything the same, except, different strength/dexterity/speed totals and they will or at least should have completely different combat experiences. assuming the appropriate game mechanics are implemented with the inclusion of attributes, lol.

Each character being fundamentally different... that's a laugh. The only real differences between any two characters I make are aesthetic. Most perks are pointless, anyway.

One of the issues that I had with Skyrim and I didn't really notice it or get annoyed by until recently but there's no difference between the races. Unlike Oblivion where there's a difference between a Breton and a Redguard, in Skyrim that's not the case at all. The only difference between a Breton and a Redguard in Skyrim is that Redguard gets 50% Poision Resistance, unique power, a couple points higher in certain skills and they move faster due to being taller, Bretons have 25% magic Resistance and a unique power but move slower due to being shorter. Not much difference especially after level 5 when the skills equal themselves out. With Oblivion that's not the case at all due to the attribute system, is that system perfect, no but it's a heck of a lot better then the terrible perks or the Blue, Red or Green attributes in Skyrim.

RPGs are supposed to be about choice and consequence, yes? Or at least have some form of it in an open world RPG?

Skyrim is closer now to being Final Fantasy, but without the heavy weight of stats that is a basis of what makes an RPG.

The decision to make a nonsense declaration such as "Skyrim is not a great RPG or TES game" is not a rational one.

It's an emotional one.

The internet is full of radical non-confirmists who upon learning that Burger King said they could have it "your way, right away" rushed to the counter to demand a Large Pepsi...

No cup.

Az

Not a rational one? Because so far I've seen plenty of people making rational arguments in favor of the statement, and very few "rational" ones against it. If anything, the people insisting that Skyrim isn't less of an RPG than its predecessors are the ones being emotional. There is plenty of [objective!] evidence in saying that it isn't a great RPG.

Some of us really do like Skyrim more than the past titles . I like it better because i like the combat better and i like the graphics better and i like the character creator better . To me Skyrim has better Archery and i like the stealth system over past TES games. I like the Killcams and the Dragons are really cool, i like the guild quests . So there are legitimate reasons why Skyrim is superior to the past TES.

many of us keep seeing the same posts giving us your opinion on the subject. ok, we got it.

now, it's about time for you to start explaining yourself so we can judge how you got to those opinions.

lol!

um, those aren't reasons. those are opinions.
the actual reasons would be those things that support your opinions.

I prefer Oblivion to Morrowind, although I enjoy Morrowind too, but I was not happy to see the elimination of Attributes or classses. I was happy to see the elimination of the need to worry about getting +5 to my attributes on level up, but not happy about the elimination of attributes themselves.


But there is not a single stat riddled RPGs out there that delivers a TES like experience where you can go where you want and do what you want. Only the Elder Scrolls delivers that type of open world roleplaying experience, so it is not really correct to say there are "tons out there for you" because there is not even one (apart from the aforementioned Morrowind and Oblivion).

Woah hang on since when did attributes ever have THAT much impact? I hardly noticed the difference until several levels had passed that my increases had any effect. I never noticed any difference between races beyond the abilities and appearance (hell, I notice more difference now with the beast race hand to hand bonus as a result of a lack of H2H skill) .

Races haven't been vastly different due to a measly +/- 10 to some attributes starting out (that usually become equalled out later anyway), it was mostly the resistances that I noticed. I chose races for their lore, skill bonuses (occaisionally) and looks, attributes had little effect on my choices.

The game is not only an RPG, it's essentially a paradigm for the RPG genre for video games as a whole.

Even if better video game RPG's exist this is the one that all others are judged by.

To make it "not an RPG" you have to niggle and nit pick your way to a self imposed obtuse view of what an RPG should be.

So far people have only been able to qualify that "Skyrim" has not been a great RPG and TES experience for themselves personally.

Az

I hate to break it to you, but making nonsense sound rational isn't as hard as you might think. Any hack can disguise their crude and emotionally bias arguements by dressing them up with the right "smart sounding" words, like "objective evidence" for example.

Not entirely correct.

The RPG genre has set itself a number of standards that set it apart from other game genres.

One of those standards is that RPGs are, more often than not, far more stat heavy than any other type of game.

Skyrim, obviously, does not have a lot of weight to it in the stats department and thus removes one of the core standards that sets RPGs apart from other genres.

The fact that your choices are of little consequence, another standard for open world-esque RPGs, continues to reduce the weight that Skyrim has as an RPG.

Loved MW, Loved OB, and Love Skyrim. Overall a brilliant game, a few flaws and quirks like any other TES title. But a good way to go I think, I have always been a big fan of roleplay and don't need little boxes in game to write down what my character is and does.

Can Skyrim be improved of course it can, this is why we have a modding community. If this is a new direction Bethesda are going in I like it. I hope they improve certain areas, like magic and a bit more diversity on the character creation but if they continue to create more TES titles in this style I think it will just get better and better, And the levelling system seems more balanced (although I never really go for God characters, a little thing called self control) In games like this you only get what you, the player puts into it.

I am still on my first play through as I only got this game recently (long time tes player though) and have spent most of my time in awe of the tiny little details that make this world seem so much more alive, and can not wait for dlc and future titles.

Kudos Bethesda on yet again another brilliant game, despite all the petty whining people make on what they feel they deserve instead of just enjoying the game for what it is. Also on the note of which game is better how can you even possibly begin to compare, the differences between the titles is what makes them unique, but they never have changed the base fundamentals of the game play and style.

Are you being serious?

If I had the time, I could probably write a 10 page essay on why Skyrim is factually a poor RPG. Not just for me personally, but in comparison to the genre as a whole. I'm pretty sure a lot of true RPG fans could do the same.

It's the people who have very little experience/understanding of RPGs who can only claim that Skyrim is a great RPG for themselves personally.

Really? Since when? Where's it written? Or when did you obtain the authority to decide the rules? I can think of games which were not terribly state based which I roleplayed in.


Please do, then I can print it and have something to block to view of your throbbing "true RPer" ego. Haw.

Imseeingred - no you're wrong on both counts.

1.) the experience is based on your -choices-, I.e. Roleplaying. If you choose to join the College of Winterhold as a non magic using warrior, that is your -choice- to do everything with all characters. But if you roleplay properly and make choices as your character, then not all characters have the same experience. But if you treat the game as a non roleplaying game, and don't roleplay, then it's your fault for not having a proper roleplay experience.

2.) attributes do no offer deeper customization than perks. Being a warrior and specing attributes other than strength and endurance, and doing agility instead, would be the equivalent of playing a warrior and perking archery. Its the same difference.

Turija - perhaps those games don't exist because you can't have the severe consequences that people are asking in an open world game, because such severe consequence requires eliminating choice to account for only a select few pre determined outcomes.

Hold on there partner, in Oblivion Attributes and racial differences in Attributes had a big impact from the beginning. For example:

A female Altmer would start with a minimum of 200 magicka (100 from having 50 Intelligence and 100 from a racial bonus) but only be able to carry 150 pounds (due to a 30 starting Strength) and start with a health of only 60 (due to a starting Endurance of 30).

Contrast that with a male Orc who would start with only 60 magicka (due to a starting intelligence of 30 and no racial bonus) but have a carrying capacity of 225 (due to a 45 starting Strength) and a health of 100 (due to a starting Endurance of 50).

Even bigger starting differences can be made through the use of birthsigns and classes, which can also impact starting Attributes.

Since when?

Uh... since Dungeons & Dragons.

When did I obtain the authority?

Since I became a game designer, it's kind of my job to know what is a standard of one genre versus the standard of another genre.

Please, name me five RPGs that aren't stat based.


"Proper" way to role-play? What?

Attributes don't offer deeper customization than Perks?

Funny... because I know that if I roll an Elf Warrior in D&D I know I won't be able to take the same amount of damage as if I had rolled an Orc Warrior. Nor will I do the same amount of damage.

Technically, you can "roleplay" in most games if you use your imagination. But the thing is, the RPG genre isn't defined only by the literal definition of "roleplaying". There's much more to it than that.

The purpose of stats in an RPG is to allow for uniquely defined characters who can progress in the game and interact in a meaningful way with the world around them. Without stats, you're effectively not controlling a character at all, but a blank avatar. There would be nothing separating one character from another, no real consequences for your character's actions, combat would be based on player skill, etc. You simply cannot have a video game RPG without stats. It's the one essential feature.

Sheogorath88 - if Skyrim is "factually" not an RPG (a bogus claim - I will take the classification of the industry as a whole as well as my own experiences with the genre over whatever your opinion is), and you have a 10 page essay to "prove it", then frankly i don't want to play rpg's because they are a wholly inferior genre to TES.

Luckily, Skyrim -is- an RPG by its very definition, and that's not going to change no matter how many pages your factually incorrect essay is.