@Degrade: I never said that. What I said is that what you see as degrading, others see as evolution. Game devs cannot appease everyone at once. If they try, the opposite happens - everyone hates the mess of crap they get. Futhermore, the definition of RPG has grown and evolved into many different directions. Maybe people who only experienced JRPGs are going to look at Skyrim as though it's a CoD knockoff, when the truth is that it's a natural evolution form Morrowind and Oblivion. Remember, in the older games build didn't matter in the end, it only mattered at first. By adding the perk system, and limiting what you can do with it, even if you max out every stat, your build is different than your friend's build, and that has a very noticeable impact in the game. It's something that WRPGs and ARPGs adopted to allow for greater diversity with the characters. Hell, FPSes liked the idea and adopted it as well. While some see it as degradation, others, myself included, see it as evolution.

Is it perfect? Of course not. But the next game will help to hone, refine, and expand upon it in positive ways.

Some are upset about a lack of character clases, but I produce a direct counter: There are more character classes in this game than your typical RPG. Why? Because it forces you to craft and build your own class. Back in Morrowind, I never, EVER used the character classes - I always made my own, and couldn't understand why anyone would even want to use one of the defaults. It's their character, why not custom build it the way they want? Skyrim makes you do just that. You're good in what you use and focus on, and when you play catchup with the other skills, they still don't compare to your focus.

So RPGs are evolving. Some don't like the direction, others do. Best thing you can do is look for a direction you like. If the direction they're taking looks like it would have been good, but disappointed you, then suggest ways to improve it! There's many things you can do, and just sitting and complaining is the least useful. Don't just gripe - shape. Devs do react to the fans. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse, but they do listen. If you just complain, nothing will improve. If you instead say "I didn't like how this was done, but I think what the intent was was this - perhaps by taking this approach with it, it could be done better?", then you're doing the right thing. The opposite is true too. Don't just say "I love this game, you guys are awesome". You like the game, yes. Five bucks says you have issues with parts of it, too. Every game has flaws - and it's common to have discussions as to how to improve it. In fact, that is how the modding community came to be in the first place.

Compare skyrim to morrowind and oblivion. Among the most commonly used mods? Things to make people look better. Come skyrim - people look way better than back in those two games. The devs listen. They see what's popular. They react to the people. For better or worse. People complained about chameleon, and how easy it was to break the game with spellmaking. So Bathesda took it out. Of course, this ticked off mages, whom are not going around suggesting many ways to implement it, as well as ways for better mage support. And you can bet top dollar there'll be a mod for it, too.

Game devs try to deliver what people want. Sometimes it's a hit, sometimes a miss, but they always try to do the customer right - because that's good for business. In doing so, gaming evolves. This applies to every genre. Hell, look at FPSes. They try to balance firearms. Guns, historically, do not work that way. Yet they try to do it anyways, because that's what the customer wants. RPGs are no exceptions.

We don't like this turn based crap! Cue ARPGs.
They should be more realistic/stylistic! Cue WRPG/JRPG split.
I don't want a story on rails, I want to explore! Cue open world RPGs.
I want to play with all my friends! Cue MMORPGs.
I want to play this on a console! My compy can't handle it! Cue modern direction of evolution.

If you don't like where the genre is going, do not declare "This isn't an RPG!". People will look at you and shoot you in the knee with an arrow out of spite, because that's as far from the truth as you could possibly get. Instead, make your voice heard, but in a way that doesn't spark a knee jerk reaction. "This is a fun game, sure, but I'm not sure with some of these choices..." Lockpicking, for example, is universally seen as a wasted tree. Athletics would be a great choice for it instead - combine acrobatics and athletics from morrowind, and add perks like tumbling and quick dodges and the like. This is the proper way of doing things, the way that people listen to and discuss. Screaming "It's not an RPG" produces a very fast growing topic where people react very negatively.

So, tl;dr: There is a right and wrong way to "gripe". This thread is doing it wrong.

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1. Yup, that'd be the franchises I was speaking of. They're also not the majority of RPGs. They're just well known, and with darn good reason. Branching dialog is something I wish was universal to gaming...

2. Try and play a generalist. Go on. TRY. It's hard, but MAN is it satisfying in the end. Without a specialization, where you have your perks really spread around, it will really come back to bite you in the higher levels.

3. You're an orc, so you probably should - that's a big thing with the orcs. Furthermore... Um, what? Okay, go take a gander at the Morrowind skills - I wanna know what your focus would be there, so I have a better idea of what you'd like to do with your character. Also, I have never seen medicine and surgery outside of games that are D&D based. I must agree with you though - that would be nice. However, consider this - alchemy uses various herbs and the like from medicine, so it could work as a good stand in. You may actually want to consider looking into it, and just limit yourself as to what types of potions you're willing to make (so, for example, restore health and fatigue would be the main types, since this would be the one that fits the basis most).

4. Aye, this is a problem I have with a lot of games, too. I also wish you could choose more than a default personality when it came to answering things. Shoot, even Neverwinter Nights, which actually acknowledges that Lawful vs Chaos =/= Good vs Evil, didn't have that - responses were static and largely independent of the personality you chose at character creation.

5: Wait, then why did you use that as your example? Or is there not a trigger that happens when you choose to marry her instead? If that's the case, it's an oversight. Let bathesda know, they might patch it later on.

I role played a Nord warrior. One that loves his culture and will do anything to help its people. He supports the soon to be High King of Skyrim, Ulfric Stormcloack.

I role played an Imperial mage apprentice, wanting to learn the Nord's magic from the famous Winterhold's College itself.

I role played a Bosmer assassin, running away from Cyrodiil after a failed contract, looking to lay low for a while on Skyrim. He doesn't care about it, he wants to make a living doing what he does best.

I role played an Orc warrior from the Emperial army, sent to serve under the Emperial Legion of Skyrim to squash the uprising.

So, this IS a role playing game, with a nice background picture on top of which you can paint your own story. Is this a hardcoe, pen and paper type, dice throwing, role playing game where EVERYTHING is possible? No. Is this a role playing game? Yes.

I agree - for me Skyrim doesn't feel like an RPG - there is no meaningful connection with your environment or other characters, except during quests which are a series of linear explore/scavange your way to a boss fight.
The only RPG elements are those that appeal to my mild OCD tendencies - like furnishing the house etc. Any efforts here are better spent in the real world.

On lowering my expectations I began to enjoy Skyrim more as an action/adventure game.

I do this in every RPG. From Arcanum to Baldur's Gate to Morrowind. Unless I am actually interested in a character, region or book I basically couldn't give a flying fack what the text is. If I want dialogue role play I'll pull out GURPS, not engage a robot. Not saying your point isn't legitimate, but I think it's really implausible to get dialogue that feels natural and interesting because, well, Artificial Stupidity doesn't know anything and can't actually respond to you. It would have been nice if anyone would ever make a game, though, where the NPCs recognize you as a god. I REALLY ought to be able to establish my own factions, push people around, found a knightly order, etc. Elder Scrolls could stand to learn a bit from Mount & Blade in this respect.
That's called an 'action RPG'. Morrowind style skills are not popular in first-person games. It's not intuitive or natural to people who are used to dynamic, physics-based environments. Now me, I don't necessarily mind the Morrowind style and I agree it better reflects that my character has skills, not me. But I don't mind the system, as I can easily beat locks and enemies, which makes the game less randomly frustrating than Morrowind.
Yep, see above. I should be able to TELL SHOPKEEPERS TO ORDER ME ITEMS. Come on, there is obviously a huge amount of trade. If I am rich, influential and willing to pay a down payment it makes no sense to have some shopkeeper not just use his connexions to find what I dang well want. This is only one small example - your character is, almost literally, a demigod. The great thing about pen and paper RPGs is that when a half-giant with a glowing hammer walks into town nobody treats him like a peasant. I mean, the nerve of some of these paige-boys and corner-shop clerks to cuss me out over bumping into them is ridiculous. THIS breaks immersion more than anything else for me - the fact that I can become a god and everyone still acts like they never heard of me. Maybe a comment, 'Oh, ebony armor, that's neat'.

One of the best Oblivion mods ever made was the one that let YOU become the Emperor. This is especially true because the main-storyline in Bethesda games is often very yawny, and I ought to damn well be able to make my own history. A conqueror, with followers, wearing enchanted items I made/bought. The fact that normal people are not receptive/responsive/terrified of your absurd power and wealth kind of defeats the purpose of having power and wealth.


Still, I think it's a fun game; and frankly no computer game is a true RPG because computers are stupid-stupid. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't improvements to be made - a word really ought to respond and change to something as simple as a minor bandit lord, when a human tank or a wizard the likes of which has not been seen since the Nevarine goes wandering about destroying legions, clearing bandits and bringing in more money than anyone knew existed I think it's obvious that the game world needs to not just stand still and pretend he's not there.

You make some good points, but one thing I must say is that it is quite annoying to hear this 'weirdo who lives in a dark basment' arguement. Especially on these forums, I would have thought that people were more aware that you don't have to be a weirdo to enjoy RPG's. I guess they have progressed far enough towards normal gaming that people do think like that, even on an 'rpg' forum.

I would like to point out, I always liked RPG's, and I was known as a sporty kid at school (I didn't do great at school, but won a lot of sport awards). I kept my RPG's when I joined the Army, and when I lived in barracks, some of the biggest scarylooking guys I have ever met borrowed them and enjoyed them. I would love to hear you say that to them... Or me in person.

I'd also like to say that there is no reason it IS weird for guys who like it to spend most of their spare time playing RPG's. In their dark basemant. If you like something, then do it. Jez.

As far as actual roleplaying, I would say Skyrim is as much an RPG as anything else out there.

I've always thought RPG fans were split into those that like "choose your own adventure", and "create your own adventure". IMO there is much more freedom for actual roleplay involved in games like Skyrim than those click-a-forced-dialogue-option games a lot of people herald as "true RPGs".

You spelled it out perfectly. Yeah for some of us niche gamers it would be cool to have those spreadsheets return in a traditional sense, but for the most part, they are there, just behind the scenes. The game is much more accessible that way. That philosophy of "live another life" is why the TES series is my favorite series.

75% of roleplaying goes on in the players head.
I can't help that kids today don't get that. Call me when you've played the original Final Fantasy.
If you think skyrim's NPC's are vapid..... Just, go play a game made before 1994.
Skyrim will seem like the most engaging game in the world.

when people call a game an "action roleplaying game",what it actually means is the game is a FPS that used to be an RPG.

this tag is always thrown around when a pc rpg has been "tweaked" to play on consoles.
because you cant rpg on a console the new name of action rpg emerged.

even when the OP has damn valid points,game blinkers panic people into saying hes full of bs,and doesnt know an rpg when he sees one.
when truth be told they know thats the bs part,because if you cant see the lack of rpg then its actually you who doesnt know an rpg when they play one.

still a good game,and when patched to consumable standard it will be a great game.
but its still a FPS,that point is undeniable when played.

they called fallout 3 oblivion with guns n grenades
well this is duke nukem with arrows n spells.

consoles cant do the complexity of rpg,so as long as games are primarily made for console you can forget rpg.

Normally people who don't care what others think; don't feel the need to mention that they don't care what others think.

On topic: you don't believe it's an rpg. Lots of people would disagree.

I have been looking for some time for the words to describe what happened to TES with Skyrim and when thinking about how terrible the dialogue is, I came up with a word.

Skyrim is fable-ised.
Shallow, hollow.

Its a terrible shame, but yes indeed, Skyrim is a very poor RPG.
Its a great dungeon crawler and a wonderful game, but if this is an RPG then I am the Sultana of the land of Plum Pudding.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm a little weary of nerds telling me what an RPG "is" and "is not". And then toss around ever finer descriptives of ever smaller game genres of almost the same type.

If you can play a game in different ways and still progress, what else would it be?

Pansy little [censored], calling people nerds on a game forum is kinda a funny thing to do.

Calling someone a nerd on a game forum typically incites a response of "Yes, I am a nerd. What's your point again?"

It'd actually be more insulting to call us jocks or something. I wear the title Nerd as a badge of honor.

See, this is what I don't understand. Your whole basis of criticism of why Skyrim is not an RPG is because of someone else's dialogue options that they wrote for you. To me, that's just not roleplaying- or at best, a very lazy way of doing it. No offense, just my opinion.

..but by saying that you just gave your opinion..

I can roleplay a guy trying to survive and help his family survive in San Andreas, and I can roleplay a mass Murderer. Is it an RPG?


Duke Nukem with arrows n spells.. sounds pretty accurate.


Litterally laughed out lud at fableised!

Following this argument would mean none of the TES games are RPGs.

There is a difference between roleplaying and lets-pretend.
I can pretend Im an Elf throwing fireballs in the woods out back as well.

For something to be an RPG it needs to be engaging. The world needs to be fleshed out and believable, and I should be engaged to care about its characters.
In Skyrim this is next to imposible, 99% of NPC's are one-dimensional and cardboard.
Repeating the same line ad nauseum every time Im close.
And the worst thing is, that one line is the only thing they have to say for themselves.

Nothing changes in the world because of my actions, they are irrelevant.
95% of quests are linear and pointless. Not only does nothing change after I do them, I dont have any choice aside from yes Ill do it, or no I wont.
Im loyal to the Empire, I helped them end the Stormcloak rebellion.
What do Imperials say to me? Nothing they didnt at the start of the game.
That is poor RPG.

I can 'RPG' Mario 1 as well. I can pretend Im an evil invader who wants to overthrow the peaceful Bowser.
Does that make it an RPG? No.

Dude, you're posting on a forum. We're all frikkin nerds here.

Irrespective of how you live your life outside of this forum, by coming on here and posting, you're a nerd.

Skyrim obviously is a role-playing game - you play the role of Dovahkin

However where I personally beleive the game falls down in this area is the very limited dialogue options. There is no capability to flesh out your characters personality in the way that you interact with the NPCs. Every dialogue option is either A. 'yes I will do that quest' or B 'no I will not do that quest' or C. 'tell me more about the backstory of XXX'. The perfect example is really demonstrated when you arrive in Riverrun and you learn of the love triangle with both of the guys trying to bag the other one out to get some action. Never during that questline is there an option to say 'p1ss of I'm not interested in your petty love triangle', nor is there the option to go to the chick and tell her that BOTH of her suitors are douchebags so 'gimme some sugar baby'. This sets the tone for the rest of the game where every quest is either no thankyou or blind aquiescence, there is very little oppurtunity to play the greedy merchant, bitter cynic, or complete psychopath.

Personally I blame this on the cinematic story telling approach which requires all the NPC responses to be voiced - but it would be nice to have a few more options for the player to select - even if the response you get in the end is the same, at least you have the illusion of choice. BUT it is still light years ahead of the completely dire nice/funny/angry Dragon Age 2 system!!

Don't get me wrong still a great game, but I do empathise with the OP

That has got to be the most blatant use of troll logic I have ever seen in my life...

actually genres are quite clear on what game is what genre.
its people trying to convince themselves an apple is an orange if you paint it orange and say it is enough times that causes the confusion.

for example,
try telling people here that this games a console game tweaked to sort of work on a pc and they will start frothing at the mouth.
theres even people on this forum think bethesda reads this place and some even think the betty staff visit here.

we live in a society where the delusional are rampant as its a perfect place to rpg real life by using a forum as a game.


time for a change...wheres the black plague mk2 ?

So.. which tes games did you play?


I actually didn't know there was such a thing. Please, enlighten me, what IS troll logic?

I actually rather enjoy the game and enjoy walking around the game's environment and interacting with the people therein, etc. I am however slightly(and I do mean slightly) that there are no games to played in any of the cities. Like a drinking game or gambling game like Dice in The Witcher 2, or Caravan in FONV... Othe than that, I am fine with the game and like the world they have created. I just wish there were some games to be played on a gamble, or some bare knuckle boxing would be nice. After all, it is Skyrim, there must be a few rowdy Nords left in the place who just like a tearing up, good time. They would certainly make the Silver Blood Inn an interesting place to hang out...